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Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by vaksel on Saturday October 02, 2010 @08:22PM (#1751725)
this is the same crap we used to hear about myspace and friendster.

Techcrunch needs to lay off the crack...facebook might be a billion dollar company...it might even be a 2 billion dollar company...but there is no way it'd beat Google.

They compare it to Google revenues...but Google's ad product is a lot more effective. On Google the user is searching for widget, and Google tells them "hey widgets are 90% off at this site". With Facebook you are reading your friend's profile, and Facebook tells you "hey, I know you are busy, but this might possibly be of interest to you"

The rate of return is a lot worse with Facebook, because you can only target by demographics...not intent

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by revorad on Saturday October 02, 2010 @08:41PM (#1751766)
The funny and scary point this post made was that maybe (just maybe) Facebook is bringing back the inefficient TV ads that Madison Avenue loves in the form of Facebook banner ads.

Facebook ads might make more money than Google ads precisely because their effectiveness cannot be measured (just like TV and billboard ads). Sure, engineers will cite poor CTRs but "brand managers" will be eager to dismiss that as oh-so-2001. They are not buying clicks, they are creating "brand awareness on the largest website on the internet".

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by pkaler on Saturday October 02, 2010 @09:07PM (#1751807)
Madison Avenue is about demand generation not demand harvesting. You can't market to people that don't realize they have a problem or a need.

You could invent the wheel and there will be no demand to harvest because everyone has always dragged their dinner back to the cave. A caveman will never do a Google search for a wheel.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by il on Saturday October 02, 2010 @09:31PM (#1751840)
FYI, it is impossible for any single company to generate demand, they can only create products that meet existing demand. Demand rises organically over time through the combination of all market forces, cultural trends, etc.

Trying to educate a market that they need your product is a losing proposition. Trust me.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by dtby on Saturday October 02, 2010 @11:48PM (#1752036)
I'm not sure what your claim is here: "Say's Law is hokum." or "Marketing is bunk."
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by il on Sunday October 03, 2010 @01:28AM (#1752168)
Neither? Judging from the downvotes my comment has been misunderstood. My job is marketing, so I know better than to say it's bunk. For those who still don't understand, here's what Eugene Schwartz, one of the greatest marketers of all time says: "What are you doing when you market something? You are not creating demand for a product. If you think that you are creating demand for your product, you’ve doomed yourself to a lifetime of hard work and failure. You can’t create demand for anything because demand is too large for you to create. The demand has to be out there. The demand has to exist before you even walk into the picture...You cannot create demand. You can only channel demand. Demand is there. Demand is enormous. The bigger the demand, the better your ad is. You are getting in a boat and letting the stream carry you. Just don’t think that you can paddle up against the stream."
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by IdeaHamster on Sunday October 03, 2010 @07:16AM (#1752510)
Madison Avenue loves these "inefficient" ads because they get to play the part of "cop" in the classic prisoner's dilemma.

Let's say you release "Brand New Purple Foobars!" and hire my ad firm to advertise them. Sales are up, so what's your conclusion? Well, maybe my ads really helped push your product. OR maybe your product was just so awesome on its own that it didn't need any advertising. The question is, if you don't know for certain which it was, do you take the risk of not hiring my ad firm next time? What if you don't, but your competitor that just came out with "Brand New Yellow Doohickeys!" does?

The problem with Google's ads is that it removes the mystery. If I know how many people saw the ad, and how many people followed through and clicked the link, then I can evaluate how effective my ad campaign is directly. It's like giving the prisoners cell phones so they can text each other… "Hey, they said you confessed…that true?" "Nah man, you?" "Nope!" "Cool…so drinks later?"

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by tlack on Saturday October 02, 2010 @09:31PM (#1751839)
I, and many others, get measurably better click through and conversion rates from Facebook because I can target people who are interested in certain topics and likely to buy. A person's search term is not the whole story.

Do you really think marketers want to blow all their money without returns? Why do you think Google Adwords is so popular in the first place?

And a final note, from someone who worked at a large agency that focused on media buying: display ads often reinforce a keyword/CPM/CPC campaign and lead to better overall results, despite how ridiculous that sounds.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by ramanujan on Saturday October 02, 2010 @08:57PM (#1751790)
I believe this is a failure of imagination. Facebook Credits will be their Gmail, the second act which shows that they are something special. Blippy, Groupon, and others are all in the general area of "social purchasing" but FB will simply dominate this when they enter the game. In a down economy, if you can get a discount by simply sharing or liking, you will. And advertisers can micro target not just demographics, but influencers within those demographics, people who are disproportionately effective in passing on memes -- and buy messages -- to their friends.

(Parenthetically, this also means people will visit Facebook for product search, buoying the overall commercial intent of the site. And an endorsement by a friend of something carries even more weight than a good Amazon reviews.)

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by rebelvc on Sunday October 03, 2010 @12:57AM (#1752117)
Paying users to spam facebook will not work in the long term.
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by ollerac on Saturday October 02, 2010 @11:45PM (#1752034)
Sounds cool, but I think these innovations would transform my idea of what Facebook is into something like how I think of Craigslist or Groupon.

Right now Facebook is where I go to see what my friends are up to. I think adding movie reviews, product recommendations, etc. might dilute its brand and its addictiveness factor -- in fact, I think they already have. Some commercial-type messages have already started diluting my news feed a little bit.

Google, despite having relevant ads in its sidebar, is still just a search engine.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by ditoa on Saturday October 02, 2010 @08:37PM (#1751757)
To play devil's advocate here do you have any evidence that Google's model generates higher return, click thru or revenue?

To me it seems like Facebook is the best long term business model. Slowly, as you and your friends update every bit of your life, where you are, what you are doing, who you are with, etc. they can have a massive amount of data to target you with. Google basically made Gmail just so they could mine more data from your email to better target adverts. Facebook may have found the golden needle in the haystack if they evolve the business correctly which it looks like they will. Look where they are taking things with places, etc. Google can target you and the people who email you but there isn't a permanent link between you and the recipient(s) whereas with FB it is a chunky sold gold chain linking you together in every way they can think of from things you "like", wall posts, comments replying to you, comments you make, invites you get, invites you accept, places you go, who you go with, when you go, how much you spend, monitor you behaviour via status updates. They will know you go out every friday night with the same three friends to one of two bars or clubs, you then go and add photos to FB when you are there and label everyone in the pictures, the location either specifically or via geotag, etc.

Google may have a lot of your data but FB is the holy grail and every business needs to think about how they can get in on the action. Google tried with the piece of crap Buzz was and the crappy Orkut that they bought but let it die when FB exploded. Soon FB will be as well known as Coca Cola and used by everyone. FB is the first service my mum, dad, grandma, aunt, uncle, etc. use. It isn't just a "under 30s" thing, literally everyone can and seem to be using it. Facebook is going to only get bigger and they have such a high userbase now it is hard to see how anyone else will replace them. They saw what happened to MySpace, they are smart and have learnt from others mistakes.

Just my 2c though :)

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by nostromo on Saturday October 02, 2010 @09:07PM (#1751810)
We tried FB ads at a company I've worked for. The return was so bad we canceled the whole campaign. Compare that to Google SEM, which is the largest channel by far.

FB may have a ton of data about you, but no amount of demo data can beat a person who searches for "i want to buy x" when you're selling x.

Interestingly, Google has had the same difficult time monetizing gmail (compared to search), even though they are targeting based on the content of your inbox.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by JeffL on Saturday October 02, 2010 @10:22PM (#1751905)
I've also tried both Google and FB ads (among other), and FB returns me next to nothing. I also don't spend money with them anymore.
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by Goladus on Saturday October 02, 2010 @10:19PM (#1751896)
Facebook has penetrated much further than myspace or friendster. My Facebook friends span several generations. I was skeptical of Facebook, I didn't think they'd pull it off. I still don't think they will be quite as ubiquitous as Google, but also I don't think that is going to matter.

And whether they "beat" google or not is rather beside the point. Facebook doesn't compete with them on search, except for people search.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by dinkumthinkum on Saturday October 02, 2010 @09:10PM (#1751815)
I think the big problem with this idea is that Facebook is far more vulnerable to changes in fads and so forth than Google is. For the forseeable future we will need something like Google and Google will probably continue to stay on top (if they don't keep putting out Google Instants) but Facebook could much more easily be hit hard by a new social networking paradigm or some kind of fad change. Also, interestingly, it seems like probably the vast majority of Facebook's users use Google but converse is probably not true.
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by photon_off on Sunday October 03, 2010 @02:43AM (#1752249)
Google will probably continue to stay on top (if they don't keep putting out Google Instants)

Google Instant only gains Google dominance. You may not like it, but some people do. That adds to Google's stickiness; those people are now much less likely to switch search engines. If the $.12/query rate is to be believed, that stickiness is extremely valuable in the long run. As for those that do no prefer Instant, I suspect they didn't have any trouble disabling it.

As a nice little bonus, Google gained notoriety for their Instant search. This means anyone else who implements it in the future will be riding in Google's coattails, and will be much less likely to realize the positive effects that Google did.

If it were up to me, I'd have Google churning out more of these features. I believe it's already the case that "search" is a commodity, and it's now the bells and whistles that are the point of competition. Google already has a huge head start, and they now need to maintain it.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by pkaler on Saturday October 02, 2010 @08:59PM (#1751794)
The rate of return is a lot worse with Facebook, because you can only target by demographics...not intent

Facebook will harvest much more intent than they do today. There will be many cases where "Ask your friends/experts" is much better than "Ask PageRank". We are seeing this with knowledge exchange sites like Quora and we will eventually see this with Facebook Questions. And this will seep into all of Facebook's Apps.

Google is having a hell of a time trying to monetize YouTube. They just aren't as good with display advertising. YouTube would be a massive revenue generation engine if Facebook owned it. Look for a Facebook Video that becomes huge.

Facebook will also turn into a massive lead generation engine based on Connect and Pages. Run the numbers for social distribution. You can do customer cluster acquisition through social distribution. With SEM you can only acquire a user at a time.

When you acquire a customer through a social network, they are more likely to lead to referrals than a user acquired through search engine marketing.

Comparing MySpace to Facebook does not follow. MySpace has massive leadership and execution issues. Facebook is probably the best executing pre-IPO company out there.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by vaksel on Saturday October 02, 2010 @11:01PM (#1751970)
spoken like someone who is a "social media expert"

look this whole Facebook is the future of search is just plain nuts. People want instant results, they don't feel like asking "what colors does the Honda Civic come in?". The answer to that will be "use the search"

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by pkaler on Saturday October 02, 2010 @11:22PM (#1751999)
spoken like someone who is a "social media expert"

I resent the ad hominem attack. I happen to have a computing science degree from when they used to actually teach Lisp in university.

look this whole Facebook is the future of search is just plain nuts.

I said no such thing. It's more like we will see the rise of sort because Facebook and other services (Hunch, Quora, etc) have access to much more structured information.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by dododo on Sunday October 03, 2010 @05:28AM (#1752420)
I resent the ad hominem attack. I happen to have a computing science degree from when they used to actually teach Lisp in university.

many universities still do teach Lisp (in AI courses, for example). this seems like an attempt to appeal to authority, which is another logical fallacy...

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by raganwald on Sunday October 03, 2010 @12:27AM (#1752074)
spoken like someone who is a "social media expert"

What bearing does this have on the factual accuracy of the claims being made?

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by vaksel on Sunday October 03, 2010 @08:07AM (#1752562)
i don't know if he is one or not, he just sounds like one.

and the relevancy is that social media experts have a vested interest in making people believe that Facebook is not a complete waste of time

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by raganwald on Sunday October 03, 2010 @09:18AM (#1752661)
So how does his "vested interest" affect the veracity of his claims?

I have an observation to share with you: If we ignore everyone who has some sort of "vested interest" in a subject, the only people we can consult for advice or suggestions will be people who are completely ignorant of the necessary facts and who have no experience in the subject matter.

Expertise in a subject is gained through working in the field. Working in the field means acquiring some sort of personal interest in the outcome.

I find that bias is useful to consider when given unfounded claims. For example, if someone says "I think Facebook is a complete waste of time," you might ask whether they have a vested interest in making us believe this is the case. However, if someone says, "Before Facebook there was MySpace and ICQ and Compuserve and Orkut and all of these foundered and died, Facebook is just the latest fad, it will die as well," we can analyze the claim directly and ask whether Facebook is a fad and if not, how it differs from the examples cited.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by kristiandupont on Saturday October 02, 2010 @08:44PM (#1751769)
It's true that Google has this advantage, but facebook has another one: "Hey, your friends x and y like these widgets".
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by redorb on Sunday October 03, 2010 @02:36AM (#1752234)
if FB started selling products using my name based on me liking producst; I won't be happy.

i.e. don't try to sell my mom a playboy cause I 'fan'd' their page.

Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by Joeboy on Sunday October 03, 2010 @05:24AM (#1752417)
That's not likely to happen because Playboy's ads will presumably be targeted at (a subset of) men. Anyway, FB doesn't need you to be happy. What are you going to do, move to MySpace?
Re:How Facebook Can Become Bigger In Five Years Than Google ... by notahacker on Sunday October 03, 2010 @07:31AM (#1752531)
Stopping using the "like" button so as not to give them usable data would be the first step...

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Facebook's bigger problem is that their "platform" strategy makes it pretty easy to monitor these metrics and target fans without paying Facebook a penny. Essentially they traded potential revenue streams for ubiquity. Getting a "x and y like this" published in friends of fans' streams is a free action, as is collecting demographic information on the "likers" and sending them all coupons they have to "like" to activate. Established brands can generate better ROI from well-run fan page promotions they don't pay Facebook for than paid display ads with low CTR.