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Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by lainga on Monday July 09, 2018 @02:50PM (#17492496)
The "warp drive" they are discussing, and which was so hyped in 2010 or so, doesn't involve FTL, it involves contraction and expansion of spacetime as the ship moves in freefall. So no time travel.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by GW150914 on Monday July 09, 2018 @02:53PM (#17492514)
It doesn’t matter, it still implies time travel. Use the wormhole acceleration-return thought experiment as an example. If you can leave point A and arrive at point B before light could, it doesn’t matter if you took a shortcut.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by hinkley on Monday July 09, 2018 @07:55PM (#17494380)
The thing that always bugged me about time travel fiction is that the reference frame is just assumed to be the surface of the earth. How fast are we wizzing through the universe? Why wouldn’t I reappear somewhere out past Saturn when I travel forward or backward in time?

Similarly, if wormholes are real, and you construct one in a gravity well, what happens to gravity? Especially if both ends are in a gravity well?

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by andrewflnr on Monday July 09, 2018 @11:31PM (#17495232)
It seems that the usual thing to do is put the wormhole in orbit around your planet or whatever. That's based more on science fiction than physics, albeit scifi by smart knowledgeable people.

I'm not sure what to think about gravity "reaching through". Gravity and the wormhole are both just curved spacetime. Maybe the larger body distorts the wormhole throat in a way that looks like "reaching through"? Certainly, you need to have some effect that causes energy conservation when you make a perpetual water wheel by suspending one mouth over another and running water through it...

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by hossbeast on Monday July 09, 2018 @09:10PM (#17494700)
Does the influence of gravity reach through the wormhole?
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by hinkley on Monday July 09, 2018 @09:53PM (#17494871)
If a wormhole is a 'fold' in space, instead of a magic teleportation device, why wouldn't gravity and light and EM fields travel through the wormhole?
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by lainga on Monday July 09, 2018 @02:59PM (#17492559)
OK, touche - it's true that an Alcubierre drive could be used for time travel, but it's not necessarily implied, whereas it is for an object actually travelling beyond the speed of light. The discoverer of the method itself [0] (Miguel Alcubierre ) believed that chronology protection [1] would prevent time travel, as the spacetime bubble would destroy itself somehow.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjectu...

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by jerf on Monday July 09, 2018 @04:13PM (#17493077)
I actually spent some time sketching out the math for an aborted science fiction world in which I had FTL that was prevented from time travel by a cosmic censor. You don't really have to "work it out" because the numbers are quite plain as day.

It turns out that if you use any remotely sane numbers on the speed of an FTL craft, it is extremely difficult to travel in time. To get time travel, you have to accelerate on the other end to very significant fractions of the speed of light, which itself takes so much time that it's hard to recover it via the FTL drive again. You have to put in absurd numbers for the speed of the drive and your ability to accelerate (and your ability to carry energy for conventional acceleration!) before you can get time travel out of most FTL drives, because bending your light cone enough to put the past into your FTL drive's path takes a lot of energy.

The only fictional drives that have serious time travel possibilities are the ones in universes where accelerating to significant fractions of the speed of light is easy-peasy, and the FTL drive is very, very fast (some are instantaneous) and can be arbitrarily steered. It's actually not that long of a list; a lot of FTL drives can hypothetically be used for time travel but the engineering in the universe still doesn't practically permit it. Just adding a cosmic censor post facto would preserve the story just fine. Many of the universes that meet those criteria are already so fantastical that they do in fact have time travel, so... those work out too.

(There's also several video universes where it's nominally possible, but the video wildly contracts the documentation. Both Star Wars and Star Trek have documentation that their ships can get to pretty significant fractions of the speed of light in small amounts of time, with ludicrous amounts of acceleration available to them, but on screen we only see them moving with absurd levels of acceleration like 50 or 100G, but which still takes a long time to get to light speed as a result, and with refueling being necessary often enough that it's hard to believe they could actually make it.)

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by dragonwriter on Monday July 09, 2018 @08:29PM (#17494527)
> Both Star Wars and Star Trek have documentation that their ships can get to pretty significant fractions of the speed of light in small amounts of time, with ludicrous amounts of acceleration available to them, but on screen we only see them moving with absurd levels of acceleration like 50 or 100G, but which still takes a long time to get to light speed as a result, , and with refueling being necessary often enough that it's hard to believe they could actually make it.)

I don't know about Wars, but Trek strongly implies that impulse drive reaches significant fractions of light speed with near-zero acceleration time; there is certainly nothing to indicate that the on-screen non-warp acceleration is limited to 50-100G, and there is little on-screen indication that refueling (as opposed to drive system maintenance, and replacing non-fuel consumables used onboard) is regularly needed.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by nerdponx on Monday July 09, 2018 @11:34PM (#17495242)
In both Star Trek and Star Wars, the ship accelerates very fast and then "blinks" away. Maybe it just needs a running start, like the turbocharger in car engine.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by ben_w on Monday July 09, 2018 @10:48PM (#17495058)
I thought the Bussard ramscoops on the warp nacelles were explicitly mentioned on-screen, not just in the show’s technical manuals?
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by jerf on Tuesday July 10, 2018 @09:58AM (#17498110)
"there is certainly nothing to indicate that the on-screen non-warp acceleration is limited to 50-100G,"

The indication I refer to is that when you see a ship moving on screen from the perspective of another ship, it never suddenly blinks to "near lightspeed", because what that would look like is that in one frame the ship is there, and the next it isn't. That is never what happens. What happens is that the ship lumbers off, and slowly turns over the course of a couple of seconds, and can be seen to visibly accelerate in a way that the ship doesn't even cover its own length in less than five or six seconds. If you work the math it comes out on the order of 50-100G. Accelerating to near-lightspeed in a couple of seconds is several orders of magnitude larger than that.

Of course the ships don't blink around at near lightspeed; it wouldn't be photogenic. So all ships on all shows in all screens move within roughly a single order of magnitude of screen speed, no matter what the tech manuals say. Similarly, no matter what the claimed ranges of the weapons are, all engagements take place within a range where the two ships can clearly see each other, meaning no more than a handful of kilometers at most. No matter how far the ships are nominally apart from each other, a bolt of energy fired from one ship to another will take on the order of half a second to arrive. Almost no matter how zoomed in we are or are not, the energy bolts will subtend roughly the same amount of our eyes. If the ship is, say, firing on a planet, the bolts will perspective shrink maybe by a factor of two or three, if they shrink at all, rather than doing what they should do which is disappear entirely (except for perhaps one lit pixel if the bolt is sufficiently emissive). There's this one ST:TNG episode where the Enterprise uses phasers to quickly mine holes in the ground and when you start to see this sort of thing it's hard not to see the Enterprise as firing on a roughly 5-mile-diameter ball sitting right next to it, because if you follow the perspective of the "beam" that's what it implies about the size of the target.

Space isn't photogenic. Even today on earth, real combat takes place at ranges where you don't have a direct visual on the target a lot of the time. Any even vaguely realistic space combat will take place across ranges where you can't see a mile-sized ship with the naked eye. But that's not what they want to show. Consequently there's a massive, massive mismatch between the numeric claims of performance and what we actually see on the screen. So you might say something like "oh, the screen is maybe being symbolic", but then they routinely do things that imply what's on the screen is the real truth, such as in the one TNG movie where Data leaps between two ships. That's just one example, there's plenty of other situations like that.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by GW150914 on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:03PM (#17492600)
It’s a cool idea, and admittedly would be a sort of loophole, but it might just mean that such a drive would require an arbitrarily high amount to work. Maybe Stephen Hawking was right and as soon as you build a machine capable of time travel, turning it on blows it up, because of QM effects. It does seem a little neat if how we intend to use the machine is the deciding factor in how it works.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by sls on Monday July 09, 2018 @04:07PM (#17493036)
Back in his collection All the Myriad Ways, Larry Niven wrote a brief essay called "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel" that explored ideas like these. One excerpt:

> GIVEN: That the universe of discourse permits both time travel and the changing of the past.

> THEN: A time machine will not be invented in that universe.

> For, if a time machine is invented in that universe, somebody will change the past of that universe. There is just too much future subsequent to the invention of a time machine: too many people with too many good motives for meddling with too many events occurring in too much of the past.

thus

> Niven's Law: If the universe of discourse permits the possibility of time travel and of changing the past, then no time machine will be invented in that universe.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:14PM (#17492668)
It also could blow up if it accidentally causes time travel...
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by SubiculumCode on Monday July 09, 2018 @08:19PM (#17494483)
Any progress on that idea (Alcubierre drive)? Always seems the most interesting. I do a Google Scholar search, but I don't know the physics journals, so its hard for me to know legit from crank abuse, without laboriously checking each result for journal impact factors.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by TheOtherHobbes on Monday July 09, 2018 @08:51PM (#17494622)
The debate continues. E.g.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/482734/

I suspect using GR to design a warp drive is like using a spoon to build a freeway. Without a theory of quantum gravity - which appears to mean not just a theory of quantised space time, but also of the non-locality and complex distributed relationships that haunt QM - you're probably not going to get very far.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by flatline on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:23PM (#17492734)
Doesn’t the wormhole scenario require bending the thing back on itself? I always thought that just because something could violate causality doesn’t necessarily mean it would, but IANAP and maybe that distinction doesn’t matter.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by fooker on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:13PM (#17492661)
Why does this imply time travel? You could look backwards in time, sure, but we can already do that.
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by surge on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:40PM (#17492836)
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by monochromatic on Monday July 09, 2018 @06:11PM (#17493842)
How does that imply time travel? Yes, you get there before the photons, but so what?
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by philwelch on Monday July 09, 2018 @07:20PM (#17494219)
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by aristus on Monday July 09, 2018 @06:20PM (#17493878)
If you go from A to B before the photons can, from B's reference frame you are arriving from the future with perfect knowledge of events that have not yet "happened".
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by trentlott on Monday July 09, 2018 @07:12PM (#17494183)
That's always struck me as sort of inconsequential, even though light is the apparent "speed limit" of the universe.

The same thing happens with sound regularly. A thing happens, and we receive light before we receive sound. Some third faster thing that gets to us before light would just be some other thing.

The distance of travel requires time relative to both reference frames.

If a star explodes at A and I travel to B at 2x the speed of light to tell folks at B, so what? Some time has elapsed and those two frames are still chugging along with causality.

Maybe there's some physics I've not learned that makes this obvious, but I've never grasped exactly why violating light speed prevents entropy from continuing. Even if at two different rates.

If we perfectly timestamped everything happening on two sides of the world and sent a telegram at twice lightspeed from A to B, it would still arrive after it is sent.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by aristus on Tuesday July 10, 2018 @02:24AM (#17495855)
Let’s say you can travel at 10c. At Point A, the Arlington Photons win the Galaxy Cup 1-0. You zip to Point B and place a bet on that game, borrowing the money to place that bet from the Baltimore branch of the Arlington Legbreaker Gang. Wait for the photons, collect your winnings at Point B, then zip back to Point A ahead of your loan. The loan info arrives at Point A, and you pay it off a microsecond later, and pocket the difference.

Congrats, you have just traveled “back and forth” through time. To people in both the Point A and Point B reference frames, you have “seen the future” and acted on it.

Now, the Legbreakers aren’t stupid. Once they know someone is screwing around with FTL they’ll just hold bets and payoffs until light can travel. Yes, but… how do they synchronize their clocks between A and B? And how can they distinguish between a lucky person and a time traveler? Etc etc, ad regressum.

"Now" and "Here" as fundamental concepts only make sense inside a single reference frame. If you break the idea that information has a speed limit, then both of those ideas shatter into tiny little pieces.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by aristus on Tuesday July 10, 2018 @10:46PM (#17504089)
More precisely, how do they synchronize their clocks between A and B when the maximum speed of light/information is no longer a known quantity?
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by TheOtherHobbes on Monday July 09, 2018 @09:09PM (#17494697)
The whole point of relativity is that there are no absolute time stamps. There are only causal relationships which are observer dependent.

If you start being able to travel >c those relationships immediately get impossibly and paradoxically twisted.

See e.g.

http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblue/archives/000089.htm...

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by monochromatic on Monday July 09, 2018 @07:06PM (#17494139)
But you can’t go back to A and change those events before they happen.

That’s not time travel. You could get the same effect by just blocking the photons before they make it to B, and then traveling at conventional speed.

Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by SimbaOnSteroids on Monday July 09, 2018 @06:47PM (#17494046)
Yes however if you were to pop back to A you wouldn't have any future knowledge at A (minus the 'future' knowledge of B).
Re:DIA Study: Warp Drive, Dark Energy, and Manipulation of E... by ummonk on Monday July 09, 2018 @06:10PM (#17493831)
That assumes that you can accelerate a wormhole mouth...