> I wish employers could realize that they employ grownups and could at least be honest to them.

As someone who only tries to hire grown ups, I can assure you that many employees do not act like grown ups at all.

If you expect people to do the right thing, you are going to live in a world of disappointment.

The only way to avoid this is to have the chance (e.g financial and social opportunity) and to use the chance (e.g by working and choosing) to set yourself in the right environment for you. Wanting the environment you are in to change does not work.

Just like you don't get more money by negotiating with your current boss, but by negotiating with bosses in other companies.

You can, and my, decide it's your mission to change your environment. It's possible. But you usually can only one mission in life, so choose carefully.

I'm this person right now. I'm living in a world of disappointment, always trying to encourage people to communicate, collaborate, work together, do things better together. It seems I'm always doing it in places that don't appreciate it.

I've learned the hard way that you appear to be right, one can't change this alone and doing so is maddening, depressing and frustrating. Especially when the verbal outward presentation by people is that they want and value the things I mentioned, but the actions don't match up.

I think I need to change, but, I can't help feeling cynical, like I'm giving up and running every time I see such a situation. And then I wonder, if everyone follows the same pattern, how are we actually improving the situation on a bigger scale?

I guess a question is, is it better to stand whatever ground you are on to help encourage positive growth and values, or just find new ground, as you seem to be saying.

I'm getting older and I still haven't figured it out. I think you might be right, but it seems depressing to me to accept it.

I've had precisely the same experience as you're describing.

I don't have a total answer, but I suspect a basic problem is that we have too simplistic an understanding of human psychology.

It's also possible that it's a chasm you and/or I can never cross, because to effect the kind of improvements you're describing requires having a particular persona.

I'd love to hear any ideas people have on solving this issue.

My experience is that environment vastly trumps individual psychology. If you aren't in some way empowered to reshape the environment then the best you can do is swap environments. Environments resist change so it takes sigifigant leverage to change them.

What kind of growth and interaction are we talking about? If forced, it doesn’t surprise me that people are not willing to cooperate. Everyone views things differently and you shouldn’t have to change anyone. Change yourself or change your setting.

The challenge I see in my day-to-day work is that people talk much about wanting collaboration, openness, sharing, cooperation, etc. However, their actions do not follow their words, and they often revert to protectionist, silo'ed or defensive behaviors as some kind of response.

I agree completely and have no argument with change cannot be forced. And I also agree that most of the time, the thing you have more control over to change is yourself and your environment.

My only thought was, there must be some kind of equilibrium or balance that tips one way or another here. For example, if you're in a place that cannot achieve what you as an individual see as best - so you change your position - what if everyone does that and then nobody is left to do the work in that place?

That might force the place to change. Or, it might just attract people who don't care about how that place is. So in that regard, while it might have been better for you as an individual, and in a sense, by leaving you did that place a favor by demonstrating your convictions, you also didn't stay to work through the challenges and maybe improve the place you were.

So, I'm saying that, if everyone does that, is anyone staying to fix things in place? Or does the world really work if everyone gravitates to only the places where everything is working well and we leave behind the places where things don't work so well?

Yeah, just apply to work at one of the many companies that hasn't gone to an open floor plan (?).

Like everything in life, that comes down to:

- can you pull it off ?

- does the cost outweigh the benefit

In that particular case, some people can't pull it off. They need the job or don't have that many opportunities. Some, like as both the chance to be able to, and have the mean to. That's a combination of luck and the result of your previous choices.

Now, does the cost outweigh the benefit is a personal evaluation. Personally I will decline working for a company with an open floor plan unless I can work remotely. It's on of my important items.

For some people, the prestige, the project, the team or the money can override this.

It's not rocket science really.

Between the dirty dishes, the nasty pee-on-the-floor urinals, the condition of my desk used as a hotel when I'm away/WFH, etc. I question the accuracy of that statement.

> the dirty dishes, the nasty pee-on-the-floor urinals

Here's a weird one: There's a number of people at my work who leave filled coffee mugs on the restroom countertops.

Oh that can go so much larger, too. But yeah, spot on.

Where are you working that everyones a grown up?