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Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by gau3avenger on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:14AM (#17345841)
Nothing can replace the A-10. Just make more of them. The more the better. A-10 saves the day baby. <3<3
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by JackCh on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:36AM (#17345987)
The GAU-8, everybody's favorite reason to love the A-10; the autocannon the A-10 was built around, is obsolete. 30x173mm can no longer kill what it was meant for killing, and what it's actually killing in practice today can be killed just as well by 25x137mm.

If you built a new plane around a GAU-12 you'd get pound for pound more killing. Lighter smaller ammo means more of it, and trust me 25mm will kill anything you might plausibly be killing with 30mm in this century.

Don't worry though, I'm pretty sure the USAF is too arrogant to actually adopt a turboprop airplane, so the A-10 will likely be with us for the foreseeable future...

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by rbanffy on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:02AM (#17346144)
> I'm pretty sure the USAF is too arrogant to actually adopt a turboprop airplane

They can at least try to make it look more modern. Adopt pusher engines and a canard wing.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by toomanybeersies on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:41AM (#17347680)
Incidentally, Burt Rutan (the founder of Scaled Composites, who are making Virgin Galactic's space ships) almost made a prototype of exactly this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES

> The original layout was of a low wing canard configuration, aircraft powered by a pusher turboprop, and built around a 30 mm Gatling gun capable of destroying light armored vehicles

The actual prototype ended up with a turbofan. Still had a canard wing though. It also had a GAU-12 as the canon, just like GP wants.

It's also made out of fancy composites. It sounds like the perfect plane for the Hacker News Air Force.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by rbanffy on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @07:52PM (#17351252)
For the record, I was being sarcastic.

And fancy shapes and materials resulted in the F-35 clusterfuck.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by megaman22 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:18AM (#17346286)
The AF is still running AC-130s, aren't they? Granted, that fills a role where air-superiority is a given, and it is reasonably safe to fly a bus loaded with auto-cannons in lazy circles, blasting the daylights out of anything that moves.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by RandomTisk on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:25AM (#17346333)
Those older planes can loiter like a teenager at a mall on Saturdays too.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by mxvzr on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:32AM (#17347009)
They are, but ever since [1] they only do so at night.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khafji

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by avoutthere on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:52AM (#17346577)
> 30x173mm can no longer kill what it was meant for killing

The GAU-8 can no longer kill top-line Russian armor? Source?

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by kilo_bravo_3 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:29AM (#17346979)
The GAU-8 could not kill T-72s, which entered service during its development cycle.

Everyone fawns over it, but the GAU-8 only had moderate penetrating abilities against T-62s, less against the T-64.

In order to "kill" a T-62, the A-10 had to approach it from very specific directions, at very specific angles of attack. The Soviets knew this so they co-located anti-aircraft artillery with their armor units and any A-10 making a gun run on a tank would have been flying through a hail of anti-aircraft fire.

In order to penetrate a thin sliver of armor on the sides of the T-62, an A-10 pilot HAD to fire from from the side of the tank at "1500 feet away, at 3 degrees of dive, at 320 knots". The Soviets knew this, too.

What direction do you think the barrels of the ZSU-23-4 self-propelled radar-guided anti-aircraft vehicles were pointed, when moving in formation with T-62s?

The PGU-14/B depleted-uranium armor piercing round, the most "anti-tank" bullet the GAU-8 fires, can penetrate 55mm of armor at 1,220 meters and 75mm at 300 meters. There are very few parts of the T-72 that have armor thinner than 75mm.

Also, those penetration figures are for steel. Very rapidly after the introduction of the A-10, the Soviet Union started outfitting all of its main battle tanks with composite armor and additional external armor.

So at best if you pepper a tank with a full magazine of PGU-14/B fired from a GAU-8 you're probably hoping to break its track, poke a hole in an external fuel tank, or puncture its main gun-- not destroy it.

Crews inside modern main battle tanks would probably hardly notice being hit by fire from a GAU-8.

Here is the "A-10 Coloring Book", written by cold war A-10 pilots as a training aid covering how to shoot at T-62. T-62s were only vulnerable from the rear, and thin (hard to hit) slivers along the sides.

https://imgur.com/gallery/fd4sK

The T-64 was harder to kill, and the T-72 almost impossible.

Due to anti-aircraft assets being closely-coupled to Soviet tank formations it was predicted that every single A-10 pilot would be dead two weeks into a hypothetical war with the Soviet Union, and this was 40 years ago.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by amorphid on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:32AM (#17347007)
The GAU-8 was designed to punch thru 76mm armor at 300 meters. [1] The Russian T-90 tank has armor thicker than 500mm. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger#Specifications

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by jacquesm on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:48AM (#17347742)
For a bit I thought you might have used the wrong leading digit but it's true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfyeR-YaJw

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by JackCh on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @05:13PM (#17350339)
To be clear, that 500mm number is referring to rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) equivalency. Modern tanks use fancy composite and reactive armor to provide incredible protection. It's not actually 500mm thick, but is apparently equivalent to the protection 500mm of RHA would provide.

These sort of numbers are a bit tricky since some anti-tank weapons are more effective against modern armor than others, meaning the armor will have a different RHA equivalency ratings against different kinds of weapons. For instance, per wikipedia, the M1A1HA's turrent is rated for 600mm / 800mm vs APFSDS (sabot), and 1,300mm vs HEAT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolled_homogeneous_armour#Curr...

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by amorphid on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @12:10PM (#17347942)
Not directly related, but I recently enjoyed this video comparing the latest models of the USA Abrams & Russian T-90 in a tank battle smackdown.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by amorphid on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @05:40PM (#17350484)
Forgot link to video => https://youtu.be/nnJCYK2F2N0
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by JackCh on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @04:52PM (#17350210)
That's right, the GAU-8 is inadequate for killing modern MBTs, but is complete overkill for any other sort of armored vehicle. It might get lucky and disable a MBT with the autocannon (it may not get through the tanks armor but could still disable the tracks, optics, etc), but really for modern tank killing it would be using something like an AGM-65 Maverick (it can carry up to six.)
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:29AM (#17347568)
>The GAU-8, everybody's favorite reason to love the A-10

Some people love it because it's a high capacity, high accuracy bomb truck. One A10 can provide a lot of close air support with just what's hanging from the wing.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by JackCh on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @04:40PM (#17350144)
Sure. But it could carry even more bombs if it had an autocannon that wasn't oversized. The fully loaded GAU-8 weighs something like 1/4th the A-10s maximum bomb load.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by etaioinshrdlu on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:30AM (#17345941)
Our military industry will not occupy itself with making effective, durable, long-lasting, cost-effective weapons.

We must go after the New and Shiny, and it costs billions.

Kind of like a lot in our society.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by rbanffy on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:27AM (#17346347)
This is an organizational culture problem and needs a serious push from multiple levels of leadership to adjust. The F-35 started as an idea to actually save money by consolidating multiple missions onto one plane, which proved a terrible idea for multiple reasons and that wasn't cancelled because there would be no other option for some of the roles it should cover.

A simplistic solution would be to design weapons around common, proven components and, if possible, interchangeable ones - designing engines and weapons to have similar mount-points, avionics that can be used on multiple vehicles and be field-upgraded and build everything about as much incremental improvements as possible (yes, I know nothing will make an F-14 a stealth fighter so some big steps are needed, but if the follow-up plane could use similar engines, that'd make logistics much simpler)

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by zentiggr on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @12:20PM (#17348029)
And would only cost about ten trillion to prototype and agree on design specs since every three-star+ and every design team/think tank would have a thumb in the pie and design-by-committee would have to market it with the slogan "2100 or Bust!"
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by rbanffy on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @07:26PM (#17351118)
That's why it'd need to be pushed from top to bottom with a "unless you have something valuable to add, stick your thumbs somewhere else" message from the top.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:25AM (#17346931)
I think the real problem here is that land warfare itself is changing too rapidly for anyone to really get on board with developing and scaling a CAS weapons platform.

I read military writers on Quora and the general sense is that it's going to be the Army and Marines that are going to form the backbone of power projection on land. The Marines are shifting their squad composition from 3 teams of four and a leader to four teams of three. One of these squad member's only job is to operate the proliferating tech tools that's becoming available to individuals.

So it's not even certain what capabilities CAS is going to need to have in the near future. Everyone's talking about loiter time, and certainly, that's really helpful, but what about the squad's soon-to-come drones? If that doesn't make the need for loiter obsolete I don't know what will.

A squad with a reconnaissance drone and portable mortars can do a hell of a lot without having to commit an aircraft. What will they need that aircraft for? Carrying weapons that the squad can't. Cue the fighter-bombers.

I can see why the Pentagon isn't chomping at the bit to spend boatloads of money on something they probably won't even need half of by the time they're done.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by FussyZeus on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:23AM (#17346320)
I mean, I'm sure we could design a fighter that would do the A-10's job better than the A-10. However what the USAF went out to do was design a plane that could replace the A-10, the F-18, etc. etc. all the way through and it's been a disaster from the start.

IMHO, it's like an All-in-One printer. You can have a machine that sucks at a bunch of things, or does one or two things really, really well. Not both.

Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by saluki on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @04:26PM (#17350034)
Double True. They went off in the wrong direction. We need to get back to creating the next generation of fighters that carry on the greatness of the F-14 and F-15. And just forget this all-in-one mistake ever happened.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by saluki on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:16AM (#17345851)
A-10 is an amazing plane. Keep it, improve on it.
Re:Air Force tests two turboprops as potential A-10 “replace... by gau3avenger on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:21AM (#17345891)
Nice to see someone writing like a Marine.