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Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by nostrademons on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:09PM (#17325149)
So here's a concrete example of the types of problems existencebox is highlighting:

My sister was laid off from her employer of 8 years 3 months after her first child was born. She was a top performer, and they'd been throwing raises and bonuses at her before she got pregnant. Over the same year or so (there were 3-4 rounds of layoffs), every single pregnant woman or mother with kids under 2 that she knew at the company was also laid off.

I mention this story, and people ask me "Is that even legal?"

And my response is "Of course it's not, but if you've got a 3 month old newborn at home, have just been laid off, and are trying to conserve cash so you don't go bankrupt before getting another job (which, BTW, you will never get if you sue your former employer), are you really going to sue them? Where will you find the money? Where will you find the lawyer? Where will you find the time?"

And then even if you do, they are going to trot out a multimillion-$ defense team who will argue that they laid off 40% of the company, they sold off a business division, the price of oil was down 2/3 from its peak, and all of the layoffs were necessary for the survival of the company. All of which might or might not be true. Look at just a few women's story and it's pretty clear they're breaking the law, but factor in macroeconomic concerns and you can muddy in the waters just enough that they might win.

That's the problem. "It's illegal" does not automatically mean that you can't get away with it. In fact, if you're wealthy and pick the right targets, you can get away with a damn lot of things that are illegal.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by metiscus on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:48PM (#17325319)
It is free to file a discrimination complaint with the EEOC if you are in the US. They will investigate your claims and attempt to settle them with your employer. If your employer is unwilling to settle they can and do often sue on your behalf to ensure an equitable outcome. Additionally the Department of Labor will investigate your claims and can bring enforcement actions on your behalf. Additionally pregnancy is considered disability therefore you can also lodge an ADA complaint with the DOJ who will investigate your claims and bring enforcement actions on your behalf.

To say you have no options is incorrect. Bona fide violations of law are routinely handled by these agencies at no cost to the victim and are very often successful.

https://www.eeoc.gov/federal/fed_employees/filing_complaint....

https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/conciliation_litigat...

https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/fmla/13.aspx

Edit: ADA to DOJ

https://www.ada.gov/filing_complaint.htm

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by dnomad on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:17AM (#17325801)
This is not true. If you're an employee actually brave enough to pursue a discrimination a complaint with the EEOC understand that you will be blacklisted and/or subject to retaliation by various firms (not just your immediate employer). EEOC understands that retaliation is rampant [1] but America's very pro-business courts have made it impossible to prove in court. It is hardly "free" and certainly not recommended for most employees to pursue an EEOC complaint.

[1] https://www.bna.com/eeoc-ponders-ways-n17179928871/

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by Spooky23 on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:50PM (#17325533)
If you work in an incestuous industry like tech, you will be blacklisted in many circles for going down this path.
Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by Phlarp on Friday June 15, 2018 @11:02PM (#17325576)
And as always, even worse-- You won't ever know if you just aren't up to snuff as an engineer / interviewer or if one or more of your interviewers, recruiters or hiring agents knows of and/or participates in such "blacklisting"

Which is also illegal, but companies openly get away with it every day.

The worst that ever happens is a slap on the wrist when all the major companies have non recruitment ("no poaching") agreements with each other, suppress wages, get caught, and have to pay a token fine.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by metiscus on Friday June 15, 2018 @11:52PM (#17325727)
Those situations can often be solved in much the same way. If someone is giving out malicious references due to an enforcement action, you report it to the EEOC or other agencies. That is also a violation and can result in further action on your behalf. Many states have statutes on the books against blacklisting and you may be able to engage the state DOL or other agencies to help you. These agencies have the full weight of the federal or state government behind them and are not in the habit of losing enforcement actions.
Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by dnomad on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:25AM (#17325825)
This is not likely to be the case. It is not so easy to pursue a retaliation complaint. I suggest you look at the case law history here. America is not France where the courts almost always side with employees. It's just the opposite. There's a very high bar for retaliation complaints and it's getting higher all the time [1]. These days you basically need a confession from your employer to establish that the retaliation was the "determinative factor."

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/business/supreme-court-ra...

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by fixermark on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:15AM (#17325795)
Nobody needs to give out malicious references when everyone just does lunch with everyone else.

Silicon Valley is a small place.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by bayonetz on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:18AM (#17325807)
Blacklisting is typically done covertly though.
Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by gaius on Saturday June 16, 2018 @01:27PM (#17328327)
you will be blacklisted in many circles

One revelation of the Damore affair was that Google managers a) participate in blacklisting and b) are utterly brazen about it

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by mbrameld on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:08PM (#17327938)
You left off a pretty important qualifier. If you're willing to entertain the fact that tech jobs exist outside of Silicon Valley, finding another equivalent job after winning a discrimination lawsuit against a former employer is no problem.
[dead]
Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by Spooky23 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @07:39AM (#17327020)
Are they?

They look overqualified and not a good fit with the team culture.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by URSpider94 on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:16PM (#17325419)
Nit pick: the ADA is a law, not an agency. The DoJ is the agency that will prosecute violations of the act.
Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by existencebox on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:23PM (#17325198)
Thanks for chiming in, as is my way after diving into a "touchy" subject I'm honestly half regretting this thread given the negative reception, and from your greying I see you received the same; but what is HN for if we don't discuss important things. :) It's ironic since your situation is _exactly_ what I worry about, both my wife and I have some phenomenal stories of the side-channels that can be used to ensure "lack of performance" during or prior to a maternity leave.

Hell, it even bridges genders, I've seen male friends on extended sick leave got the shaft via PiPs, where the time-correlation was uncanny to say the least, and the cost to pursue it seemed disadvantageous to them at the time.

My suspicion is that there's a perception that because we don't back the "Laws Laws Laws" aspect of it 100%, some people read us as "opposed", when in reality I'm arguing that _laws are not sufficient_ to achieve positive outcomes. Unfortunately, many people are... very opposed to engaging in this discussion, so the best I can do is guess.

EDIT: (And, lest I spam the thread more, thanks@meti for mentioning EEOC, I honestly didn't know that existed prior, and I'll be sending it to one friend right now)

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by metiscus on Friday June 15, 2018 @11:58PM (#17325749)
You are right that laws aren't enough. It's the same situation with a school bully. You can complain to the teacher about it and they will make them stop. Often the bully will then recruit other kids to bully you because you are a "snitch" or teachers pet. Similar to the whole blacklisting issue. That person stopped my illegal behavior so I'll show them etc.

What we have to fix is the idea that because someone undertook an enforcement action that they are a risk. If your company treats it's people fairly, you generally have nothing to worry about. If when presented with blacklist info people reported it (especially when it is illegal) the culture around this would improve.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by virgilp on Saturday June 16, 2018 @01:00AM (#17325934)
What I don't get is... forget the "illegal" part, how is that not dumb? 3 months after your first child is born is when you start to accommodate with your new life. They will spend another 6 months-1y trying to find a reasonable replacement, and might very well end up with a poorer employee, and for sure one that needs to ramp up for a few months. By that time, she will likely be fully productive again.

What baffles me the most is that my (US) employer practices rampant positive discrimination when hiring women (I don't mind, btw). And I find it hard to believe they're unique in this. How does a company go from "we ned more gender diversity" to "let's fire the young mothers!"?

WRT "how to fix this".... it's one of the few things that my country has done fairly well, but it'd be unthinkable in the US: you can legally take up to 2 years of maternity leave (or paternity leave, but not both; I think social security covers most of the costs for the company). It's at a fraction of your salary, and there are incentives to come back to work sooner, but you can also stay the full 2y. If you come back sooner, the company is often just grateful, they don't question "how will you handle it" because well... you could've stayed home; you probably figured it out how to handle a small child. And after 2y, nobody really doubts that you can handle work & parenting. Firing you while pregnant is rampantly illegal, I've never heard anybody have this problem - but, indeed, there is sometimes/in some companies a reluctance to hire young childless women. Still, overall I think the rule is pretty good.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by s_kilk on Saturday June 16, 2018 @03:37AM (#17326422)
> What I don't get is... forget the "illegal" part, how is that not dumb?

It's a kind of bourgeoisie management ideology. The bosses insist that you, your time, and all of your attention belongs to them (we only want 110% players, etc).

When a child enters the picture, they have concrete evidence that the thing they believe is not true, and that's a subconscious threat. They need to either admit that their shitty paper distribution company is not actually the be-all-and-end-all of existence, or just eliminate the threat.

Which is to say that this behavior _is_ dumb, but it does serve a function in preserving the ego of management.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by pg314 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @08:45AM (#17327184)
> And my response is "Of course it's not, but if you've got a 3 month old newborn at home, have just been laid off, and are trying to conserve cash so you don't go bankrupt before getting another job (which, BTW, you will never get if you sue your former employer), are you really going to sue them? Where will you find the money? Where will you find the lawyer? Where will you find the time?"

That is one thing unions are good for.

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by doktrin on Saturday June 16, 2018 @08:30AM (#17327146)
Weirdly enough "it's illegal" does in fact work just fine in a lot of countries. The US legal system being a borderline p2w scam is probably part of the problem, likewise that American companies rarely feel like they have a shared social responsibility and proudly adopt a "I gotta get mine fuck you" attitude.
Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by skookumchuck on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:57AM (#17325927)
> Where will you find the time?

If she doesn't have the time to work on a lawsuit, why would she have had the time to work at her job?

Re:Pregnancy Discrimination Is Rampant Inside America’s Bigg... by pimmen on Saturday June 16, 2018 @02:15AM (#17326168)
Because if she’s finding the money for a lawsuit she’s busy working.