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Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by zerostar07 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:11PM (#17296121)
Europeans at large dont seem to care for freedoms like that. I mean we have blasphemy laws in many countries and not really free speech. We seem to love the american internet though, perhaps because we can have some actual freedom of speech there.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by gowld on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:53PM (#17296644)
Your national/EU laws apply to your activity on the American Internet.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by zerostar07 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @07:43PM (#17299061)
Not if you re not using your real identity, and even then its more complicated than if the companies were local. They would simply be shut down.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by lumberjack on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:26PM (#17295558)
Each European country has its own laws, but most countries never had anything resembling "freedom of speech" as an American would understand it. Every country has a list of "limitations" on free speech. It is also not something people care about.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by pjc50 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:46PM (#17295814)
The number of people in this thread pretending that ECHR article 10 doesn't exist is far too high.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by throwawayjava on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:11PM (#17296126)
lumberjack did not say that the EU does not have a freedom of expression. lumberjack did say that the EU doesn't have freedom of speech "as an American would understand it".

Article 10 of the ECHR as interpreted by the ECtHR is very different from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as presently interpreted by SCOTUS.

It's also worth noting that the First Amendment as presently interpreted by SCOTUS protects some speech that was not always unambiguously protected; see e.g., a good fraction of humans pre-1970-or-so, the evolution of the court's treatment of obscenity, speech in the schoolhouse, and so on. In some sense, even previous Americans didn't have freedom of speech as a modern American would understand it.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by maxk42 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:15PM (#17296163)
And you're pretending ECHR Article 10 § 2 doesn't exist. Freedom of speech isn't freedom of speech if there's a giant asterisk next to it.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by antientropic on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:29PM (#17296359)
Freedom of speech is not a binary thing. No country in the world has absolute freedom of speech. However most EU member states are among the most free in the world (see e.g. https://rsf.org/en/ranking).
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by sbov on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:58PM (#17296701)
That list has little relevance on this subject, because if you look at their methodologies they look at a lot more than government influence. (see https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology)

In fact it lists the US below pretty much every European country, and the US is known to have some of the most permissive free speech laws.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by DanBC on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @03:07PM (#17296803)
> and the US is known to have some of the most permissive free speech laws.

But look at all the US kids having armed police sent to their homes because they swore on Xbox live.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by 2trill2spill on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @03:49PM (#17297311)
> But look at all the US kids having armed police sent to their homes because they swore on Xbox live.

I'm assuming you have links or evidence to back those claims up. Or are you mistaking this for kids getting swatted[1], because I certainly haven't heard of kids getting in trouble with police for swearing on Xbox live and I feel like that would make national news.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by hermitdev on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:07PM (#17297985)
It's not because of swearing, it's generally because of a grudge.

Making false statements to police is not protected speech. In every instance of this happening that I'm aware of when police are able to track down the individual(s) responsible, they are prosecuted, generally to the fullest extent of the law. It's dangerous to make something like a murder/suicide threat, and it should be treated & prosecuted as such. Yes, the police probably overreact, but they don't necessarily know it's a hoax.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by JackCh on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @03:11PM (#17296864)
Are there any opinions, if stated, that can land you in prison in America?

I'm not talking about threats, just opinions.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by wafflesraccoon on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @03:59PM (#17297404)
Maybe voicing an option on jury nullification in the wrong location at the wrong time?[0] That is just a shot in the dark though.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by JackCh on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @04:22PM (#17297623)
As I understand it, the opinion itself is not illegal, but the act of specifically targeting jurors might be. But I'm also under the impression that these sort of charges often but not always get tossed. I'm pretty damn confident that it's fully legal for me to say here and now: I believe jury nullification is a good idea.

And I'm not aware of any other sort of opinions that are illegal to state in America. Even denying or applauding genocides and other atrocities is legal in America.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by fipar on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:36PM (#17295683)
Every country has "limitations", including the US. See, for example, the obscenity trials in the US.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by gowld on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:54PM (#17296658)
Which Kim?
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by protomyth on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @04:40PM (#17297755)
Kim Jong-un of North Korea
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by frockington on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:18PM (#17295462)
2 years? Look at the current state of the UK, at least Kim is giving the appearance of desiring transperncy
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:43PM (#17295776)
UK doesn’t count, won’t be in the EU in two years and the European Court of Human Rights and the Human Rights Act were both given as reasons to leave by those who campaigned to do so.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by DanBC on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @04:45PM (#17297809)
> Look at the current state of the UK

Which case are you thinking about in particular?

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by pitaj on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:07PM (#17297991)
Count Dankula I assume, among others.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by creaghpatr on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:06PM (#17295316)
I thought EU countries don't have a legal right to free speech?
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:48PM (#17295845)
We do, by way of Article 10 of The European Convention on Human Rights: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_C...
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by bthrm on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:27PM (#17296334)
Not really. Saying for example that the holocaust didn’t happen can very well land you in prison in many EU countries.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:34PM (#17296425)
No free speech is absolute. There are things you can say in the USA which also get you into trouble. That said, I will agree that more speech is free in the USA.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by hermitdev on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:16PM (#17298088)
IANAL, but generally, the speech that is limited in the US is to things like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater - i.e. things that might cause general panic.

Speech such as the Holocaust didn't exist doesn't represent immediate harm, and as despicable as it may be, is protected.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ng12 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @06:13PM (#17298562)
There's a huge gulf between absolute free speech and jailing a man for teaching his dog to give a Nazi salute.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @02:33AM (#17300761)
“””The 30-year-old taught his girlfriend's pug to react to the words "gas the Jews", which he repeated 23 times in the short video that he uploaded to his YouTube channel last year.””” — https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pug-nazi-salute-...

I think what you see as a huge gulf, I see as a moderate width river.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ng12 on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @12:01PM (#17304303)
How so? In the USA that is explicitly protected free speech, no ifs, ands, or buts. That's my point.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @03:26PM (#17306198)
I did say the USA allowed more speech than the EU. However, my point with this example is that while the USA may allow this, it is not simply “teaching his dog to salute”, it went far beyond that.

If anything, I might now argue this is case can be considered an example of “fighting words”, a concept which varies between legal jurisdictions but certainly does exist in the USA.

On further consideration, given the trigger phrase the dog was trained on, it might (IANAL) be argued to be “incitement”, which is also a thing which exists in USA law.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ng12 on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @04:40PM (#17306733)
> which is also a thing which exists in USA law.

That's exactly it, this is clearly not incitement according to US law. Here are the two important concepts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

According to the latter, the smell test is:

> "Advocacy of force or criminal activity does not receive First Amendment protections if (1) the advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action, and (2) is likely to incite or produce such action"

The pug case in no way comes close to either of those clauses. I'd argue, from a legal standpoint, this is absolutely simply teaching his dog to salute. It's crass, rude, and offensive but also perfectly legal under any meaningful definition of free speech.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Thursday June 14, 2018 @02:56PM (#17314352)
I’d argue that (2) could apply in certain countries given the current political situation in those countries. However, I am already certain you won’t see it that way at all. I find it rather more interesting that we disagree about the magnitude of the difference between the systems.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by PurpleBoxDragon on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:59PM (#17296721)
And yet don't many European countries deny other genocides (or refuse to call them genocides) for political reasons? At the very least the law should be fairly applied to genocides.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by cube2222 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:34PM (#17298255)
Could you please elaborate?
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by PurpleBoxDragon on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:42AM (#17355226)
For political reasons people have used far lighter language with incidents such as the Armenian genocide.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by anothergoogler on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:57PM (#17295955)
> restrictions ... for the protection of health or morals, ... preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, ...

Sounds legit.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by throwawayjava on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:26PM (#17296329)
> for the protection of health or morals

The 1st amendment has a similar set of exceptions (morals: [1, 2]; health: [3, 4]).

> preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence

Several of the exceptions discussed in [5] apply here.

Some speech about non-gov't secrets is also not protected by the 1st. Two examples include anything the court decides is not of public interest (e.g., DeCSS), and publication of recordings or transcriptions without prior consent (in some states).

And then there's the most obvious historical exception to the First Amendment: being too dark in any century except this one.

The differences between the EU and the US are much more attributable to political culture. The massive and obvious failures of the First Amendment's protections in previous centuries demonstrate that the constitutional text itself plays only a small role; the political culture that ultimately interprets the text is also important.

Mistaking the First Amendment for a permanent, carte blanc, or unambiguous license to free speech willfully ignores the fact that the force of the document is inseparable from the political and governmental culture entrusted with its care, and that ALL current and previous political cultures have interpreted the First Amendment in a way that DOES restrict speech for "the protection of health or morals". and for "preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence".

It is the degree to which these tradeoffs are made, not the mere existence of the tradeoffs, that differentiates the First Amendment from Article 10. And to see how those tradeoffs are made, you have to go beyond the text and delve into case law.

--

[1] https://courses2.cit.cornell.edu/sociallaw/student_projects/...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by anothergoogler on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:34PM (#17296417)
IANACL, but the language of the US' constitution's first amendment has no such exceptions. The conditionality of the right in the EU convention practically makes it a dead letter, and this is borne by the way EU states play fast and loose with freedom of expression. Comparatively, the right is sacred in the US. Which is part of why most transgressions involve the judicial branch heavily, the exceptions get their own page on Wikipedia.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by throwawayjava on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:46PM (#17296561)
> but the language of the US' constitution's first amendment has no such exceptions

None-the-less, those exceptions do exist!

> Comparatively, the right is sacred in the US

I argue this is much more a result of political/governmental culture than the letter of the constitutional law.

I.e., we could swap the text of the First Amendment with the text of Article 10 and speech in the US would still be freer on average.

I believe this because it turns out all of the categories of speech not protected by Article 10 are also not protected by the First Amendment (there are differences, but those differences are matters of boundary rather than category; concretely, Article 10 could be interpreted in a way that's congruent with the current interpretation of the First Amendment).

> Which is part of why most transgressions involve the judicial branch heavily, the exceptions get their own page on Wikipedia.

The thesis that pithier speech protections and less explicit exceptions result in judges more jealously guarding speech is an interesting legal theory. IMO it's much more likely that these differences are attributable to political culture and national ethos.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by friedman23 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @03:03PM (#17296756)
>None-the-less, those exceptions do exist!

In the US you can say practically anything anywhere and have no fear of getting arrested. That is not the case in the EU.

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by pjc50 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @05:41PM (#17298314)
What was the business with the "free speech zones", anyway?
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by jakeogh on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @04:54PM (#17297881)
Maybe you are thinking about the "fire in a theater" case? It's a bad decision: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by throwawayjava on Wednesday June 13, 2018 @11:52AM (#17304228)
No. Also, speculating about what I'm thinking of is unnecessary because my original post [1] includes 5 concrete examples that justify my claims. None of those refer to Schenck.

If you believe my claims about are inaccurate, I implore you to read through those 5 citations in my original post.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17296329

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by pjc50 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:47PM (#17295835)
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by joejerryronnie on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:27PM (#17295570)
Well, you can pass laws blatantly targeting a major world religion, you just can't talk about it out loud.
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by petepete on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @01:34PM (#17295670)
> Well, you can pass laws blatantly targeting a major world religion

Which one would that be?

Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by mschuster91 on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:15PM (#17296164)
> Which one would that be?

Anti-burqa laws, e.g. in Austria.

[dead]
Re:Illegal Memes? Weak Safe Harbor? Unpacking the Proposed E... by ben_w on Tuesday June 12, 2018 @02:42PM (#17296516)
People targeting that religion are what ended up causing the human rights laws that say we shouldn’t target religions. I think also the right to join a trade union, though that might have something to do with who was on the winning side in the war that made all of this an issue anyone really cared about.