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Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @02:59PM (#17250015)
This is an unpopular opinion here, but the facts stand.

Mozilla makes money disappear. Their 2016 revenues were in excess of $520M, and their claimed output was the Quantum browser.

The two largest R&D verticals seem to be their browser and the codecs group. That still doesn't account for expenses of $520M in 2016, and much much more in 2017.

Where is all the money going, Mozilla?

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by st3fan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:59PM (#17250545)
This is an unpopular opinion here, but I'm tired of these attacks.

You have no idea what it takes to have _hundreds_ of engineers and supporting teams to work on a multi-million lines of code application that needs to be shipped to a giant group of users.

What do you think Mozilla is? A bunch of hackers in a room? It is a global company with 1200 employees. In a dozen offices around the world.

How do you think money disappears? You think Firefox and all the other things Mozilla does happen by itself? That this is all free? That this does not cost any money? ....

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @04:04PM (#17250593)
Let me first say that this is in no way an attack on Mozilla engineers. This isn't an attack on you, clearly the community loves your work.

The question you need to ask is if the chrome (browser) and codec team in Google add up to 1200. Or the IE+Edge and __add_MSFT_GRP__ add up to 1200.

Further, do those groups cost their parents $500M/year?

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by st3fan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @04:05PM (#17250604)
"""Mozilla seems to be subsidizing the whims of a corrupt few at the top"""

Please stop talking.

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by Immortalin on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:42PM (#17250400)
Browser engineers aren't exactly cheap. 250k for a good C++ Dev is reasonable. Assuming 100 engineers (a very conservative estimate), that's 25 million in just pay alone. 50 million including codec. Now add in the costs of infrastructure, community engagement, DevOps, Marketing etc. and the costs will quickly balloon. Browsers are critical infrastructure like operating systems. Their complexity is on the same level as OSes, perhaps even more. It's exposed to hostile code everyday, you don't want people who don't know what they are doing to work on it. This isn't some sort of dating app where the only vulnerability you have to worry about is a code injection in the birthday form field.
Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by raverbashing on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:55PM (#17250513)
Yeah, but you're not going to have every one of those 100 earning 250k/yr. Half of that for some, 1/3 for some others would be a more realistic value
Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:51PM (#17250476)
So the true benefit (to the community) is about $50M +- 10%. Heck, let's double it and call it $100M.

The remaining expenses are fluff. In a corporation, one wouldn't be allowed to have non-essential expenses far exceed essential ones. In a non-profit, this philosophy needs doubling down on.

I might be completely wrong, but Mozilla seems to be subsidizing the whims of a corrupt few at the top.

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by Immortalin on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:58PM (#17250536)
Unlike at GOOG, MSFT, AAPL, Firefox isn't a loss leader or cost for Mozilla that can be subsidized by other products. Before criticizing their finances, go find an organisation that can afford to even build and maintain a full-fledge cross-platform browser with mobile support for less than that. Browsers are not simple things. You have to create an entire ecosystem of software and development tools to go along with it as well as maintaining full legacy support. Most software of similar complexity are all built by organisations with deep pockets.
Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by st3fan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @04:04PM (#17250594)
"""So the true benefit (to the community) is about $50M +- 10%. Heck, let's double it and call it $100M."""

Your napkin "calculations" make zero sense. Go read the financial report.

"""Mozilla seems to be subsidizing the whims of a corrupt few at the top"""

Ah it is clear what your real intent is.

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @04:09PM (#17250637)
"Ah it is clear what your real intent is."

And what might that intent be? Are you suggesting Mozilla's top brass are bonafide angels doing God's work, above public scrutiny? They seem to position themselves as champions of the people and freedom, much like politicians

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by microcolonel on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @03:10PM (#17250106)
Ideologically driven corruption, just like the corporate money, the university money, and the budgets of most major cities. ;- )

A similar thing could be happening to Wikimedia Foundation's finances.

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by st3fan on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @04:30PM (#17250842)
It is really unfortunate that again this nonsense is the top comment. That again someone angry at Mozilla managed to hijack a thread.

There is so much interesting going on in the linked post, I really wish this community would be able to have a mature discussion about that.

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Wednesday June 06, 2018 @05:16PM (#17251193)
Convenient spin that questioning Mozilla's finances equates to hating Mozilla. It's trivial to quell doubts with facts, but a slippery slope to label doubts as hate and shift the conversation to positive marketing and spin.
Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by groby_b on Thursday June 07, 2018 @01:56AM (#17253628)
Since you haven't even read the financial report, no, you aren't "questioning". You're slinging dirt. Please stop.
Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Thursday June 07, 2018 @02:20PM (#17258633)
I've ABSOLUTELY read the fabled financial report [1]. Things get even more suspicious if one nit-picks on it. Software development cost Mozilla $225M in 2016 and other expenses $135M. An unacceptable amount of expenses go into non-core activities!

If you're a software engineer @ Mozilla and earn less than ~$190K/annum ($225M/1200 employees), your boss is exploiting you. OR Mozilla routinely pays actual engineers far lesser than what their top brass spend on whims.

[1]: https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2016/2016_Mozilla_Au...

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by groby_b on Thursday June 07, 2018 @11:34PM (#17262382)
$190k/y cost doesn't mean an engineer earns $190k/year. Not even close. I'd guess that means they're around average $140k/year income - which really isn't that high for engineers, especially since they have a large presence in the Bay Area.

The other expenses break down into mostly marketing ($47M) and "general and administrative" ($59M). The first one makes sense - it's a small budget for a global presence. G&A usually includes office rent, which I'd bet is a huge chunk.

Let's do the math: SF is ~$80/sq.ft. Usually assumed is $175 sq.ft/engineer. That's $16M of those $59M. Then there's utilities, insurance, etc. Let's call it $20M.

Then there's legal expenses - those usually go into G&A. Given that in 2016, Mozilla squeezed $1B of payments out of Verizon ($375M/year until 2019), I'd assume some lawyers made a good chunk of money. Given the huge jump in G&A from 2015, I'm willing to attribute the entire difference ($20M) to legal costs. This was a huge one-time event, it would make sense.

Now we've explained $40M of those $59M. So, at this point, we're debating if the remaining $19M could possibly have been extracted nefariously. Likely, no, because there's more costs. And if you have 1,200 employees, costs add up quickly.

Meanwhile, the only evidence you've brought for your accusation is "because I believe it's true". That's not even close to meaningful. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but the facts we all share say otherwise.

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by mankash666 on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:37PM (#17269463)
1. Not all of the 1200 employees reside in the US. Which implies the U.S. salaries, on average, need to exceed your $140K estimate. IT DOES NOT!!! https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Mozilla-Salaries-E19129.htm

2. Not all of them are devs, and devs are (typically) the most expensive. Which should further increase the average US compensation for devs to MUCH MORE than $140K

3. GitLab has hundreds of employees but they choose to have a lean real estate footprint, especially in exorbitant zip codes like SF to keep costs low. Obviously, Mozilla isn't concerned by minutiae like over paying for real estate

4. Why does Mozilla need a ~$50M marketing budget? HUGE RED FLAG!!!

5. Self adorned morally upright Mozilla squeezing out a $1B to squander on __insert-here__ is a crime against humanity. They neither have a moral edge over Verizon, nor does money in their coffers benefit humanity. It empowers the senior management in much the same way as government funding empowers the morally bankrupt politicians at the helm.

In conclusion, Mozilla's budget breaks down into 66% software (whose costs still don't make sense given their global developer footprint), and 33% B.S. overhead.

If one digs deeper, (I'm guessing) you'll find the senior management @ Mozilla to be earning orders of magnitude over junior developers - like a private corp. Further, even private corps have no tolerance for 33% of their budget being squandered!! [Atlassian, Gitlab, ...] are famous for having almost $0 in marketing budget, while a not-for-profit like Mozilla THAT HAS NOTHING TO SELL thinks it OK to wash $50M down the loo.

We need a politico like organization to go deep into Mozilla's inner workings as these numbers DO NOT COMPUTE

Re:Mozilla Announces $225,000 for Art and Advocacy Exploring... by groby_b on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:53PM (#17270030)
Hey look: Average salary of Moz employees? $137k: https://www.comparably.com/companies/mozilla/salaries

As for PR/marketing, it might be worth remembering Mozilla's mission: "...to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all"

Yeah, kinda needs marketing.

But really, your mind is set. It's part of a conspiracy to enrich the Mozilla leadership. If that helps you sleep at night, go for it.