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Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by sonnyblarney on Thursday May 31, 2018 @08:42PM (#17201595)
Not quite.

When 2 nations are each protective, it's bad for both.

If they are both open, it's generally good for both.

But - if one protects in a sneaky way, and the other is open - the it's amazing for the protectionist country.

So nations strive to be 'open' but then to sneak in stuff, or rather, sometimes they are open, but really are not.

It's impossible for American companies to sell into Japan for many reasons, arguably quality, but the way Japanese business syndicates work, they'll keep America out, irrespective of what the government says.

This was a huge thing in the 1980's and is the 'memory' that gripes Trump.

As for China - we don't have open trade with them.

America is considerably more open than China.

+ China has massive state-owned agencies, the subsidized markets

+ They have a 100% politically controlled currency

+ They have political capital controls

+ They require foreign entities to hand over key IP

+ They have any number of barriers (some on purpose, some not so much) to foreign participation.

+ China does not pursue those breaking IP rules.

China has had these advantages for some time, it's just that when they were poor, nobody really cared, but as they get powerful, it becomes an issue.

So the only choice is to play 'hardball' with such nations - because these nations won't react to anything else, and they'll only react to threats that are credible.

As for Europe, it's a different bag, but America has some decent beefs with Germany in particular.

As for NAFTA - that's a tough one. I don't think America has such a huge advantage, but wages are weaker in Cana/Mex which gives big opportunities in some ways ... but it also keeps Can/Mex standard of living lower in many ways. So the NAFTA gripe is more difficult to understand.

Put another way - the US has been having a 'trade war' with China for 30 years, it just wasn't ever a big deal.

And there are some issues (cars) that America has a reasonable beef with on Germany, for example.

I think Trump is a douche but he's not 'all wrong' on these things.

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by s2g on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:20PM (#17201827)
> but it also keeps Can/Mex standard of living lower in many ways.

I'm curious what ways you would argue Canada has a significantly lower standard of living.

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by sonnyblarney on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:30PM (#17201880)
"I'm curious what ways you would argue Canada has a significantly lower standard of living."

I'm Canadian.

Our GDP/cap is usually lower.

I work in tech, my salary is less than 1/2 what it would be in the US (not just Silicon Valley).

Most goods are more expensive here.

We do have Universal Health care, and generally good schools and Unis, it's generally safer, cops are more low key etc. etc.

It's hard to compare societies, and I think the US could learn a lot from our system, but in most 'individual metrics' Canada is just poorer, economically. (Though I'd hate to be poor in the US.) There's just so, so much more economic activity and points of prosperity in the US sometimes I find it mind-boggling, again, it's a lot of Apples to Oranges admittedly.

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by verelo on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:43PM (#17201947)
> I work in tech, my salary is less than 1/2 what it would be in the US (not just Silicon Valley).

Yes, but I'd argue that SV income might look higher, but after you try living there you'd gladly go back to Canadian expenses if the compromise was that you also had to take your Canadian income once again. Also, income inequality in Canada isn't as bad as the US (yet...)

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by s2g on Friday June 01, 2018 @03:23PM (#17209049)
Why? Do you think people are too stupid to do basic math? Totally ignorant of their monthly expenses? What is it that compels people like you to bring up "cost of living" as though anyone who says "higher salary" is a complete moron?

Is it just bay area zealots on both sides embracing the meme that "IT'S SO EXPENSIVE".

We get it. we know. We don't look at SF and go "oh wow, 10 k more a year" while paying 2000 a month more in rent. We look at it and go "oh wow, 110k more a year, even with the rents thats a lot of money".

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by verelo on Sunday June 03, 2018 @09:40PM (#17223825)
I’m not saying everyone cannot do the math, but for sure, lots of people are in denial of the math.
Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by throwaway5752 on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:42PM (#17201943)
Canadians are on average happier and live longer. I really don't see how you can argue there's a lower standard of living.

Also, isn't the median household income higher in Canada than the US?

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by s2g on Friday June 01, 2018 @03:25PM (#17209077)
No, but they are apparently 6th and 7th with a pretty marginal difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

honestly, the thing that made me question was lumping Canada in with Mexico. Not shitting on Mexico, but the standard of living there is clearly lower.

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by s2g on Friday June 01, 2018 @03:15PM (#17208960)
So am I, and I make less money but my standard of living isn't that much higher. Certainly less than I would expect making twice as much. Our HDI is the same. GDP per capita in the states is about 10k higher, but Gini is lower in Canada.
Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by simonebrunozzi on Thursday May 31, 2018 @08:51PM (#17201653)
And the US Dollar is NOT a 100% politically controlled currency, in your view?
Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by sonnyblarney on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:04PM (#17201738)
It would be wild to claim that USD is a politically controlled currency, to the point of conspiratorial, and the onus would be on you to provide proof that Trump et. al. are controlling interest rates or Fed programs. He most definitely is not.

There is no direct link between the executive/legislative and the Fed.

The Fed does what's roughly best for American economy, which disproportionately favours those with assets, banks etc. - but they are fairly independent in normal times.

In times of crises, you could start to point to some things like all those homes right now sitting on the Fed balance sheet, surely. But regular operations are not politically controlled.

But in China, the currency is literally worth whatever the government wants it to be at any time. They can literally press a button and 'poof'.

Because of the amazing control and power of the Chinese government, the RMB might be the most tightly politically controlled currency in all of history: at least all of the fiat money that failed in the past ... leaders had to water it down or print money behind the scenes over time.

Not to say that's entirely bad - one could make the claim that 'it's better for China' to have this, there'd be some good points there. But in terms of 'free trade' it's not good.

In any event, the US does not have open trade with China really, so there's constant trade tensions, there probably always will be.

I don't thin anything I'm saying is controversial or new, it just might be new data for the folks here on HN who I find are generally more tech than finance oriented.

Re:Canada hits back at 'punitive' U.S. tariffs in 'turning p... by vturner on Thursday May 31, 2018 @09:24PM (#17201850)
Too bad you're being downvoted, despite the chorus of anger over the Trump tariff actions, what we have is not free trade by any stretch of the imagination and it is long over due for some course correction.