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Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by Semirhage on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:27AM (#17167235)
Those bargain rates are possible largely because the Basin’s five dams generate around six times what the region can use locally. Much of the surplus is exported, at premium prices, to outside buyers such as Puget Sound Energy, and those outside sales subsidize local rates.

But if the utilities are selling more of their power to local Bitcoin miners, they’re exporting less power at those premium prices, which makes it harder to keep local rates low. Further, because much of the surplus is currently committed in long-term contracts, supplying miners with all the megawatts they want might require the utilities do something virtually unprecedented: buy power on the open market, at prices far above what locals have come to expect.

Solution: pass a law to charge miners export prices. It’s not as though Bitcoin mining helps the local economy, so you either return revenues to pre-mining levels, or drive the leeches out. Either outcome is equivalent.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by tradedash on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:32AM (#17167267)
Why is the solution to everything "pass a law"? there is an ocean of possible solutions to this problem yet people somehow always jump to "pass more laws" before other options are considered. I find that rather weird.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by wpietri on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:50AM (#17167396)
These are public utilities, so changing their rate structures so significantly could well require legal changes. And if the solution is outside the utility, then it definitely requires legal changes, as then we're in to the realm of business regulation, and American business regulation is generally of the style of "everything is allowed except for these specifically forbidden things that have proven to be bad".

Of course, if you'd like to propose some less intrusive solution I'm sure both we and the people of Central Washington would be all ears.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by skybrian on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:07PM (#17167499)
This is like asking why the solution to bad software is to commit more code.

It's because the way to fix a bad law is to pass another law. Otherwise you're saying we should keep the bad laws we have and work around it some other way.

Sometimes fixing the symptoms actually is better, but it's not surprising when people suggest changing the code.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by abecedarius on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:59PM (#17167817)
Patches on top of patches are not the only way to maintain software.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by skybrian on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:39PM (#17168046)
Some commits are much better than others, but they're all commits.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by latexr on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:47PM (#17168097)
Sounds like something out of a motivational poster. I say this positively.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by seunosewa on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:02PM (#17167469)
Also, unless there is a law compelling them to charge miners the same prices, a new law is not needed. The utility can just implement it as a price policy.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by bnegreve on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:35AM (#17167285)
What are the other solutions?
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by matte_black on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:34AM (#17167278)
Agreed, they should just straight up cut off power to miners if they want them to go away.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by MBCook on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:01PM (#17167831)
There are externalities that they want to control for some people but not others or through a means other than a price hike on everyone.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by iovrthoughtthis on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:34AM (#17167279)
Everything looks like a nail when you've a hammer in your hand.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by trophycase on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:37AM (#17167294)
Because when you live in a "civilised" society such as ours, an individual has no power outside of asking those with power to do things for us.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by Faaak on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:34AM (#17167277)
Solution 2: don't subsidize prices. Problem solved.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by MichaelApproved on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:42AM (#17167326)
Prices aren't being outright subsidized. The other states who don't have the foresight of creating enough power for their own citizens have to pay premium prices to the states that properly planned infrastructure. The situation is being taken advantage of by miners who can exploit low rates that couldn't realistically be planned for when power production infrastructure was being created.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by UncleEntity on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:05PM (#17167482)
The other states did plan ahead by getting long-term contracts for power, probably makes more sense to buy excess hydro-power than building a coal fired plant locally.

Now they find they can't supply export power and local power because their crystal ball didn't predict there would be a power hungry technology moving in.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by dahdum on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:22PM (#17167612)
If you are going to forego energy neutrality, why stop with the bitcoin miners? Could they charge controversial businesses like adult entertainment more as well?

Since they sell excess above local prices, all local usage drives up local prices.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by mark_edward on Sunday May 27, 2018 @05:41PM (#17169246)
Energy neutrality? Every utility has differential industrial and residential and commercial pricing, and energy discounts are super common for localities to lure development. China is the extreme end, where some places actually get free power, but even here there's all kinds of discounts our special rates. What do you think Amazon is trying to get cities to grovel for? Special tax discounts, energy rates, whatever they can get.
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by dahdum on Sunday May 27, 2018 @07:20PM (#17169701)
As far as I know differential pricing is based on classes like industrial vs commercial and applied fairly. Incentives for development are super common of course, and controversial in themselves.

This would be different though, targeting a business to pay more than other commercial enterprises. That's a targeted disincentive, and if not structured generically and applied fairly it's bad policy. Seems hardly different than Comcast deliberately slowing Netflix down, not to extract revenue, but to put them out of business.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by mark_edward on Monday May 28, 2018 @07:09AM (#17171798)
It's just the opposite of targeting a business to pay less than other enterprises, which happens all the times as development incentives. I don't think it's any worse policy than that, it's just the flipside.

In this case, due to the fact that by taking the town's total usage up, they raise the costs for everyone in the town, you could also just see as internalizing an externality.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by DenisM on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:34AM (#17167282)
There might be a challenge in wording the law properly. Miners might claim they are “content creators” or “scientific labs” to avoid the law, leading to protracted litigation.

But yeah, raise the prices I say.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by tomhallett on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:42AM (#17167328)
I was just wondering about this - are the miners being charged taxes on the revenues generated?
Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by d0ugie on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:14PM (#17167554)
According to this Q&A from the IRS, yes, miners are on the hook: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf:

A-8: Yes, when a taxpayer successfully “mines” virtual currency, the fair market value of the virtual currency as of the date of receipt is includible in gross income. (...)

A-9: If a taxpayer’s “mining” of virtual currency constitutes a trade or business, and the “mining” activity is not undertaken by the taxpayer as an employee, the net earnings from self-employment (generally, gross income derived from carrying on a trade or business less allowable deductions) resulting from those activities constitute self-employment income and are subject to the self-employment tax.

Re:Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Centra... by BrandonM on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:40PM (#17168051)
That's only federal tax. I don't think Washington has state income tax. And generally only large cities have local income tax.