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Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by matte_black on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @03:55PM (#17128891)
With any new lending platform I have to ask: What happens if I borrow assets, spend them, and never pay back the lender?
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by nahollander on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:13PM (#17129012)
In the current implementation / use cases we're focused on, your collateral, which is held in a smart contract, would become eligible for seizure by the lender.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by matte_black on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:25PM (#17129120)
And what is the collateral here? My house? A car? Money?

If my collateral is another liquid asset it doesn’t make sense to borrow, and if it isn’t how exactly does the lender go about seizing it? I want this explanation to reach a satisfactory conclusion.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by nahollander on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:37PM (#17129225)
The collateral can be any other asset that is represented by a cryptographic token. Right now, few crypto-assets map to real world assets in some capacity, but we're willing to make a bet that this will change faster than most expect.

Already, though, there are many interesting assets in the world of crypto that are particularly well suited to being put up for collateral -- namely, the emerging class of crypto-collectibles such as CryptoKitties.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by tango24 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @10:24PM (#17131066)
> namely, the emerging class of crypto-collectibles such as CryptoKitties.

You can’t honestly be serious about this. Please get outside the Silicon Valley bubble and look around.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by berberous on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @11:07PM (#17131230)
Look at the number of people that collect all kinds of crap: DVDs, video games, stamps, baseball cards, in-game virtual items, comics, art, etc. You can argue that some of it has more utility -- art is culture! you can watch a DVD! -- but the mindset of collecting goes beyond that, and certain utility, like games or trading cards, maps just as well to the crypto collectible world. Cryptokitties is an early example, but I am 95%+ confident something like it will be a HUGE hit within the next few years. So yeah, why not use the crap you already collect to secure a loan?
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by Kiro on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:47AM (#17131867)
You have no idea how much you underestimate what CryptoKitties started. Cryptocollectibles will most likely be the first killer app. It's not about the kitties, it's about the underlying mechanic of owning a truly unique digital item.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by nradov on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @09:41PM (#17130929)
Why would there ever be a cryptographic token representing my house or car? It just doesn't make any sense. The map is not the territory.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by wastedhours on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:44AM (#17132979)
I'm not a crypto-apologist, but this use case I can see (sorry if it's a little rambling).

Each property/car could essentially be represented by its own smart contract, initially held by the mortgage lender. When you pay an instalment of your mortgage, it executes the contract to "release" the equity to you.

When it comes to selling, to change the name on the contract, the buyer would pay based on the split between the lender and the owner, or pay to the owner who has to close the contract with the bank (in the event of moving to a new property, the bank and owner get their relevant proportions on Property 2's smart contract, and it goes again).

You could then "lend" out the equity you've earned from the bank, and use it as collateral for something else, getting it back once you've satisfied the terms of that agreement (meaning, if you don't, the person you lent it to is a creditor on the selling of the house/closing of the contract).

It's essentially automating/giving an interface to an existing contractual relationship. I think this interface might actually be clearer for some people who are financially uneducated, as it expresses their ownership percentage, debt obligations, and potential secured borrowing options in one go. Whilst a lot of it could be done without the crypto side of things if everything happens with the same bank/group of people, with buying and selling assets, you're working on trust with a bunch of different organisations and people, the ledger aspect could help with this.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by bjl on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:14AM (#17133460)
That's all well and good until someone steals my private keys and and now I'm out a house.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by wastedhours on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @08:31AM (#17133561)
"You wouldn't download a house" memes aside, like a lot of the move from analogue to digital, there was always a chance someone could have socially engineered you out of the deeds to a house, the technology just opens up the attack potential exponentially.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by nradov on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:17AM (#17134344)
What's the point? This doesn't gain anything over existing legal contracts.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by wastedhours on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:51AM (#17134611)
> What's the point?

>> I'm not a crypto-apologist

> This doesn't gain anything over existing legal contracts.

>> I think this interface might actually be clearer for some people who are financially uneducated, as it expresses their ownership percentage, debt obligations, and potential secured borrowing options in one go. Whilst a lot of it could be done without the crypto side of things if everything happens with the same bank/group of people, with buying and selling assets, you're working on trust with a bunch of different organisations and people, the ledger aspect could help with this.

I'm not arguing for it, merely point out the potential use case people would push for, and if it were to be pushed, I outlined why I think it could beat out existing legal contracts.

Would appreciate a rebuttal to my points.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by krrrh on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @06:10PM (#17138837)
> Would appreciate a rebuttal to my points.

People already have a hard time dealing with contracts written in their own native tongues, why would they prefer having to read and validate source code? Even if a few standard blockchained contracts emerged for real estate deals that could be validated into human language, regular people are terrible at using and trusting software that they use irregularly. In some jurisdictions it is possible to buy and sell houses without involving lawyers or bankers, but most people use their services anyway because they are legally obligated to act in their client's interests, and they are experts at such things. Obviously you will also have to include the government-administered land title registry, an institution that have slowly evolved over centuries and works very well. There is no good reason to decentralize land titles, even if it were possible.

So even if bringing public-key encryption and software interpreters into a real estate deal were to introduce some efficiencies compared to dealing with word docs and paper copies that any country lawyer could amend and attest to without having to hire a Solidity developer and praying that it's one that can handle a weird contract addendum without introducing a bug, which is a big if, the costs and complexities would barely budge because there is a lot more that goes into a real estate transaction than validating contracts.

Crypto-apologists (I know you're not one) seem to include a lot of people who have never stressed out over a real estate deal, or worked on a helpdesk.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by wastedhours on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:19AM (#17142086)
All fair points - but there's no reason not to involve legal counsel in smart contracts either (if we're talking in hypotheticals about a bank being ok issuing a smart contract for a mortgage, then I think we have to make the assumptive leap Solidity developers are two-a-penny), and the benefit of the solution I proposed is that your everyday interaction with your state of the contract is more visible than it is with the current system.

My proposal is less about the legal setup, and more about the ongoing interaction with the contract, which might aid with financial education, especially around equity (see how many people are caught up in interest-only mortgages), and debt leverage.

Whether you use a ledger or not depends on how it could actually work, but there aren't many other solutions that give transparency among multiple disparate parties, without a reliance on a credit agency (which, as we all know, has caused some... issues...).

Not sure whether I'm keen on that vision of the future or not, but I can definitely see the day where physical assets are represented by some digital manifestation/token.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by fiatjaf on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @10:02PM (#17130992)
Since there are many tokens (and increasing) that people must hold to be part of some network, tokens that are effectively shares of a business and stuff like that, these may make a good deal as collateral. People do lend out their stock, for example, today.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by Adamantcheese on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:57PM (#17129353)
If the borrower is the one setting the collateral, what's to prevent me from putting up something that's rapidly depreciating like my collection of e-Beanie Babies and effectively stealing the loan?
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by ghthor on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @05:19PM (#17129506)
I'm sure the lender could make the right decision there if they had enough knowledge and were able to view what the collateral is.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by cortesoft on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:35PM (#17129207)
Other cryptocurrency, I am guessing.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by TekMol on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:19PM (#17129068)
How can this make sense? If the collateral is X, then the borrowed amount (Y) has to be less then X. Why lend anything in the first place, when that means you can only spend Y while otherwise you could have spent X which is more?
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by songeater on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:30PM (#17129157)
Say I own 1 bitcoin at $10k/BTC. I want to go buy a mining rig for $5k. I could sell 0.5BTC and buy the rig. BUT, I believe that BTC is going to $20k, and I don't want to sell. So I go to person X and say lend me $5k against what is currently $10k of BTC. He has 2x collateral coverage... so he makes the loan. if BTC falls to $7500, he may have the option to sell and recover his loan. I get my money so I can create more "money" out of thin air (or rather electricity and metal). When BTC goes to $20k I am rich. RICH.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by onecooldev24 on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @05:17PM (#17129485)
This can easily be done on CME futures market, we don't need dharma for this. Futures can be used in multiple ways to swap inherent volatility with a fixed stream of return.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by matte_black on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:36PM (#17129211)
What happens if after immediately getting his $5k BTC I buy a sweet rig for $15K BTC and the price of bitcoin drops to $4k?

I guess I can’t spend the collateral in the first place?

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by anilshanbhag on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:53PM (#17129336)
This can happen on the stock market too. When bitcoin drops to around $5k, you get margin called and bitcoin will get sold on the open market.
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by nahollander on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:24PM (#17129109)
This happens quite regularly in the world of margin trading.

Imagine the following:

1. I own ETH, and want to hold my ETH position so I can enjoy price increases, but I need liquidity to live my day to day life and, well, it's hard to pay for things with ETH. 2. Instead of selling ETH and exiting my position, I put ETH up for collateral and borrow a stable-coin (like DAI) against it. That way, I maintain my price exposure to ETH, but have liquid cash to use for my day-to-day needs.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by TekMol on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:28PM (#17129136)
Oh! So this is not about lending buying power. But about lending in the context of betting on currencies.

A lends 10 Xcoins to B. B puts 11 Ycoins into escrow. A will either get back 11 Xcoins or 11 Ycoins.

If Xcoins rise in price relative to Ycoins, B is happy and A is sad.

If Xcoins fall in price relative to Ycoins, B is sad and A is happy.

Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by matte_black on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:28PM (#17129134)
And if you don’t use coins for day to day living expenses?
Re:Launch HN: Dharma (YC S17) an open protocol for borrowing... by cortesoft on Tuesday May 22, 2018 @04:36PM (#17129221)
You could cash out the borrowed coins for cash.