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A comment on The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015). Parent comment

Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by kazen44 on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @12:57PM (#17084021)
> Wait a second and consider that maybe there is a reason why this incredibly large number of developers are using these tools. That perhaps they evaluated various different options and decided that what they are using is more suitable than make. Maybe you could find out.

Here we have another fundemental "problem" between dev and ops.

The inherent friction because of different areas of concern.

Dev's want to build fast and create new features, but sadly (even with the whole devops notion) are usually not thinking about viability in production.

Ops people need to keep thing stable, something which is sadly undervalued a lot of times in companies.

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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by notyourday on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:22PM (#17084325)
Put devs on 24x7 escalation above your level-1 ("Is it actually broken?") NOC. Developer attitude would change immediately.
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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by digi_owl on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:48PM (#17084626)
Sadly i have seen far too many devs go "you are holding it wrong"...
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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by notyourday on Monday May 21, 2018 @07:20AM (#17117523)
"You are holding your paycheck wrong"
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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by mcguire on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:56PM (#17084722)
"It works for me."
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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by untog on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:00PM (#17084074)
Not really? A lot of build tools are chosen specifically to make the build process more reliable and understandable. For example, build tools like Maven handle dependency management, which is hugely beneficial in ensuring your builds are consistent and work the same in different environments. Makefiles are shell scripts.
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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by colanderman on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:24PM (#17084343)
Makefiles are definitely not shell scripts. Individual recipe lines are executed using Bash by default, but you can change this. (Heck you probably could even get away with Python if you really wanted.)

The rest of Make (which is 95% of what's in a Makefile) is its own language, which is actually not too bad for what it's intended for (munging around filenames), and has the flavor of a functional language.

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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by mcguire on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:55PM (#17084706)
"Maven handle dependency management"

https://maven.apache.org/pom.html#Dependency_Version_Require...

Don't forget to go the extra mile with your dependency versioning to ensure you actually get repeatable builds.

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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by mancerayder on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:13PM (#17084215)
Not taking sides here but you picked a bad example. Makefiles specifically handle dependency management, but designed from a compiled language perspective. Make sure you build this .so before you build this bin, or that this directory exists, and so forth.
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Re:The sad state of sysadmin in the age of containers (2015) by untog on Wednesday May 16, 2018 @01:52PM (#17084669)
That's fair, but it still reinforces the point: Makefiles are great from a compiled language perspective. Other build tools are better from other perspectives. It isn't wrong to choose a tool depending on your needs!
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