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Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by vbezhenar on Monday May 14, 2018 @07:23AM (#17064493)
How do you check that this real-time transaction log was not altered? I think that blockchain concept is a neat way to implement that check. Client need to store a single hash and move on to the latest transaction verifying each block. If something is altered in the past, client will notice that immediately.
Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by Retric on Monday May 14, 2018 @07:35AM (#17064562)
You can easily provide a log of most databases and clients can hash that. So, block chain adds nothing there.

Really, you can keep adding hashes to your log, but a client needs to save old hashes and have some access to old logs before they can verify anything.

IMO, a large reason everything went blockchain is you can tack it in without changing anything. Just setup a process to modify your logs and boom another buzzword.

Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by marknadal on Monday May 14, 2018 @04:26PM (#17069153)
At the point where we are talking about a distributed log with cryptographic hashes, it is hard not to introduce the buzzword "blockchain" back in, as that is the original design.

Having global consensus (PoW) is a different matter, but that doesn't mean what you are saying isn't a blockchain.

There is a good conversation me and @geofft had the other day, would love your thoughts on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17000401

Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by wpietri on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @09:28AM (#17073723)
With the important exception that there are no blocks. If you're doing transactions one at a time, it's just a long ledger with checksums. Which are just a timesaving techinque so you don't have to replay log segments and compare with snapshots.

In practice, many of these organizations talking about using in-house blockchains have legal trust relationships and systems of laws in common, and they won't only be relying on a transaction log to make sure the record isn't getting fiddled.

And often the threat model isn't related to changing the historical ledger anyhow; there is a lot of fraud, embezzlement, and other financial crime that attacks other points in the system. That requires a significant system of financial controls, which will be sufficient to catch ledger tampering as well. Meaning that the checksums become a modest nice-to-have, not a significant anti-fraud technique.

Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by marknadal on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @12:57PM (#17075413)
Okay, that is an interesting and fair point.

You are saying because these types of verified logs can't control for other variables, they do not represent a "complete" set of the system, and therefore aren't as useful for fraud analysis? Hmm.

But this is where I feel like calling a cryptocurrency economic model a "blockchain" is just a silly misappropriation of a word. To me, clearly "blockchain" is not like "capital" or "communes", a blockchain is a cryptographically verified data structure. However, I do hear a lot of people throwing around the word "blockchain" just to reference an economic model, which seems excessive.

I like your point though, and well described.

Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by Retric on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @10:45AM (#17074278)
People used DB logs with hashes for verification at least as far back as the 70's. Blockchain on it's own is just a slightly different form of the same thing.

So, while Blockchain has nothing directly to do with being distributed, that's just a useful feature but requires proof of work of some kind, or someone can quickly manufacture several blocks.

Re:Rhetoric around the blockchain hints at problems with tec... by marknadal on Tuesday May 15, 2018 @12:50PM (#17075353)
Right, the only "new" thing is using PoW as an /economic incentive/ because PoW was previously used for plenty of things during the cipherpunk movement as well.

Fair point about it being distributed

The Proof of Work solves a separate problem, that of Double-Spending. The Proof of Work here isn't arbitrarily to slow the system itself down, just to slow non-canonical histories.

But that itself is not the "blockchain" (thus the "how do you define it?" question, I'm curious to hear your take), I'm just playing devil's advocate: A lot of people who weren't around in the 70s are now calling verified logs a "blockchain", now it is a stupid buzzword, but at what point do we consolidate the word for an idea, versus argue there are semantic differences?