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Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hndamien on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:05AM (#17018738)
I'm not saying anything about finding cheap electricity. And the greater fool theory isn't true as you could apply this theory to fiat money as well (except it is more foolish since new money is constantly created without the consent of the holders).

The point is that the free market and algorithm finds an efficient equilibrium between what the users value it at (which is a reflection of its utility to them), what it costs to secure the network in relation to the reward paid for it. In these costs are electricity costs, for which miners will find the most efficient means such that they are profitable. The energy prices are determined by the economic actors producing it. The will charge what the market will bear such that they are profitable and competitive. All this is a wonderfully efficient system except for the fact that the externality you are worried about (pollution from energy production) is not accounted for anywhere in the system. In fact, it is almost incentivised, since it is likely that I can produce dirty power cheaper than I can clean power (although this is changing). If you did account for this, dirty power would become more expensive, miner using it would disappear or choose clean energy.

Hence, the problem is not "It uses too much energy! So wasteful!!!!" The problem is "We don't account for externalities!!!! So bad!!!"

Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hudon on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:18AM (#17018790)
Actually, recent research found that even when considering externalities, proof-of-work is considered wasteful:

"Another issue relates to the negative externalities arising in proof-of-work blockchains. First, as shown above, when choosing individually optimal computing capacity, miners fail to internalise the negative externality their investment generates for other miners by increasing difficulty. This implies that equilibrium capacity acquisition in proof-of-work mining is excessive. Second, proof-of-work mining generates greenhouse-effect negative externalities, whose order of magnitude is significant. As of January 2018, the electricity consumed for Bitcoin mining was equal to the electricity consumption of over 3,400,000 US households, with an average consumption per transaction of around 300 KWh. Pigovian taxation could curb overinvestment in mining, but it might also be difficult to put in place, given the international decentralisation of mining."

source: https://www.tse-fr.eu/sites/default/files/TSE/documents/doc/...

Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hndamien on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:28AM (#17018823)
I fail to see your point here. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. "proof-of-work mining generates greenhouse-effect negative externalities" is incorrect. Power production creates these externalities, and they are unaccounted for.
Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hudon on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:45AM (#17018881)
You’re proposing we fix energy production instead of fixing Bitcoin AFAIU. However, until we know how to do that OR until we have strong use cases for Bitcoin, why not put tight controls on proof-of-work mining to reduce electricity consumption?

The “let the market find equilibrium” philosophy is reckless when we’re talking about global environmental concerns IMO.

Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hndamien on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @01:22AM (#17018988)
No, I am suggesting that the only problem here is accounting. If you have a price on carbon, the rest will sort itself out. The lack of this cost being accounted for creates the false equilibrium where we plunder the environment to efficiently meet our needs within an otherwise well designed economic system - that is only made better by Bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by notahacker on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @10:22AM (#17021066)
I think when you have a technology which creates the same amount of power demand as all the people and industry in Peru, and rewards people for locating this demand in the part of the world with the cheapest dirtiest coal fired power and zero energy tax, it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend it's not a huge part of the problem because hypothetical global carbon taxes might solve wider problems.

Crypto mining is part of the externalities accounting problem, and for that matter one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas...

Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hndamien on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @07:12PM (#17026184)
I think you will need a citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas".

The chief motivating factor is a fair economic system.

By your logic anything energy intensive industry should be stopped because of the pollution it causes. Say goodbye to the Steel industry, Aluminium industry, Chemical industry, Textile Industry, Copper industry. https://www.ecofys.com/files/files/ecofys-fraunhoferisi-2015...

I guess this comes down to the fact you think it is more pragmatic, sensible, likely and beneficial to have Bitcoin miners stop mining. I think it is more pragmatic, sensible, likely and beneficial to have a price on carbon.

Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by notahacker on Wednesday May 09, 2018 @05:44PM (#17034439)
You're actually asking for citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the steel industry, aluminium industry, chemical industry, textile industry and copper industry have done more for humanity than Bitcoin. Use less electricity though...

YMMV, but I think it is more pragmatic, sensible, likely and beneficial to stop shitting on people's lawns than to evangelise wider adoption of a system for producing more shit, funnelling it more efficiently to lawns less likely to attract the attention of shit regulators, whilst insisting the real problem is that the lack of a global shit tax. (I'd have used a less fecal analogy like hazardous waste and clandestine disposal systems but that's a little too close to stuff I'm actually working on making more difficult in the day job!)

Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hndamien on Wednesday May 09, 2018 @09:53PM (#17035873)
"citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas"."

!=

"citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?!"

[dead]
Re:Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency by hndamien on Thursday May 10, 2018 @07:08AM (#17037837)
So no citation for your assertion then. Got it.