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Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by hugh3 on Thursday September 16, 2010 @09:11PM (#1699658)
Companies colluding to drive down pay is, of course, the mirror image of unions, which have employees colluding to drive up pay.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by guelo on Thursday September 16, 2010 @11:16PM (#1699979)
If there's going to be an unfair bias between labor and capital I'll side with labor everytime. Besides, labor has been on the losing side for a decade now, http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/04/09/business/200804...
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by yummyfajitas on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:12AM (#1700102)
Labor hasn't been losing at all. Wages haven't gone up that much, but total comp has. Companies give their workers a greater portion of their compensation in (untaxed) insurance, rather than in (taxed) wages.

http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTa...

Pylab made me a nice graph of total comp (based on tables 6.2D and 6.4D from http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/SelectTable.asp?Selected...):

http://imgur.com/aDwkL

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by sbov on Friday September 17, 2010 @01:23AM (#1700239)
Unless I'm doing something wrong, that graph seems completely wrong. Is it adjusting for inflation?

2000 non-wage compensation per employee is (Stats taken from your first link and 6.2C): (615,931 * 1,000,000) / (137,228 * 1,000) = 4,488 per employee

2009 non-wage compensation per employee is (Stats taken from your first link and 6.2D): (1,072,019 * 1,000,000) / (136,089 * 1,000) = 7,877 per employee

Your graph shows an increase of close to 20,000 from 2000 to 2009. If wages were stagnant, non-wage compensation doesn't explain this increase.

Edit to add: if you look at private companies only, which seems fair given this article is about collusion between private companies, the numbers are worse than those mentioned above:

2000: (424,680 * 1,000,000) / (114,597 * 1,000) = 3,705

2009: (690,975 * 1,000,000) / (136,089 * 1,000) = 5,077

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by yummyfajitas on Friday September 17, 2010 @07:59AM (#1700803)
I don't think it adjusts for inflation. Adjusting for inflation, we have total comp per FTE worker of $49.8k in 1998 and $57k in 2009. But you are right, benefits don't explain the entire increase. Wages went up as well, from $47k to $52k (inflation adjusted).

(Using this inflation calculator: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi)

Also, since the article is about collusion between google and apple, we should really be comparing compensation for the best programmers. I admit, I have no idea whether that went up or not.

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by jshen on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:23AM (#1700123)
You should break it down by income bracket, it looks very different.

http://yakkstr.com/posts/791-This-is-whats-wrong-with-Americ...

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by yummyfajitas on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:43AM (#1700159)
Your graph has even more flaws than guelo's graph. In addition to having the same flaw I pointed out in his graph (it looks at wages, not comp), it also doesn't give magnitudes at all. All it gives you is relative proportions.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by jshen on Friday September 17, 2010 @01:01AM (#1700196)
I don't have time to slice it every way possible, but I found this with a minute of time on google

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_10...

Please show your unflawed version and tell me what point you think it is making.

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by yummyfajitas on Friday September 17, 2010 @08:06AM (#1700818)
Your graph shows a wage increase as well. So does the original source which your article cites (2 links deep).

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications_papers/pub_displa...

The key graph: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/07-09/figure2.jpg

I take it we are in agreement?

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by codexon on Friday September 17, 2010 @08:53PM (#1703362)
It shows a wage increase for women, but a wage decline for men by 17% over 30 years.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by jshen on Friday September 17, 2010 @11:06AM (#1701372)
yes, CEOs got huge wage increases, the bottom half was flat. That's how averages work. If Bill Gates walks into a homeless shelter the average net worth of the 10 homeless people and billyG is over a billion!
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by yummyfajitas on Friday September 17, 2010 @11:19AM (#1701429)
Did you even look at the graph that you posted? It shows an increase in median wages, not mean wages. Bill Gates walking into a homeless shelter does not affect the median wage. The article it is based on also shows an increase in compensation even at the lower percentiles. From the article:

"Wage growth rates at the 10th and 20th percentiles were only slightly below the median growth rates, increasing by 17 percent and 18 percent, respectively."

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications_papers/pub_displa...

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by jshen on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:37PM (#1701748)
Your link makes my point for me.

"As noted, some economists have argued that relatively large wage gains at the top end of the wage distribution drove the increase in average wages, while median wages grew little if at all. I have shown that, in fact, median wages increased appreciably since 1975—by 28 percent—once benefits were included"

When he says that median wages increased, he is including the insane amount healthcare costs have risen. He is counting what employers pay for health insurance as compensation for workers. This makes sense on some level, but it also makes it clear that the take home money of average workers has stagnated while it has sky rocketed for the super rich. The fact that employers are paying more for healthcare (and we are paying more for it too) is not a sign that things have improved for average workers, in fact it's a sign of the opposite.

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by nl on Friday September 17, 2010 @01:28AM (#1700250)
In most non-US countries the "tax" people pay for health insurance is a lot lower, and collected by the government instead of private for-profit companies.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by gaius on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:30AM (#1700134)
It doesn't really matter which side you're on, either in principle cartels are OK or they're not.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by guelo on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:39AM (#1700150)
That's a very black and white, econ-101 worldview. Real life is filled with many more shades of gray.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by gaius on Friday September 17, 2010 @02:31AM (#1700334)
There was a story here just a few days ago about Google employees interviewing at Facebook, despite having no intention of leaving, just as a wage negotiating tactic. Now let me just say that I have no problem with that, in "real life" you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

I'm just saying that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Sometimes the wider economy favours the employee, sometimes it favours the employer, that's all.

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by _delirium on Thursday September 16, 2010 @11:43PM (#1700045)
Indeed a mirror image, and possibly causally related. In the U.S. at least, the big union-organization frenzy was, perhaps not coincidentally, mostly in industries dominated by large industrial trusts that colluded with each other. It seems like a reasonable defensive reaction, even if not ideal: if your counterparts are all colluding with each other, so you have no real choice of employers, you pretty much have to collude as well if you want any chance of negotiating a decent deal.

(And, often, the industrialists were colluding with local governments in addition to each other, making it even worse; especially during the period of the "mine wars".)

I don't really like unions, but collusion like this is an understandable reason to form them: if the companies are all agreeing behind closed doors to do X and not do Y, the only real ways to force them (since they've removed the ability of market competition to do so) are to either: 1) pass a law banning the objectionable practice, e.g. California's prohibition of non-compete agreements; or 2) get a large enough group of people to all agree not to work for any company unless certain terms are met.

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by yummyfajitas on Thursday September 16, 2010 @09:23PM (#1699689)
It would be interesting to see how many union supporters also support monopsony agreements between corporations.
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by hugh3 on Thursday September 16, 2010 @11:35PM (#1700023)
I've found you don't generally get far with people by pointing out that their political principles are horrendously inconsistent.

In fact, it's only a tiny minority of people who care whether their political principles are consistent or not.

Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by gloob on Thursday September 16, 2010 @11:16PM (#1699977)
Given that the purpose of unions is to weaken companies' bargaining position by preventing them from "divide-and-conquering" the workers, I would guess...almost none? And it would be perfectly ideologically consistent?
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by Daishiman on Friday September 17, 2010 @12:34AM (#1700141)
Who told you a union supporter believes that what is "fair" to workers should also be allowable by corporations?
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by peppone on Friday September 17, 2010 @04:27AM (#1700468)
depends on which union model you take german style codetermination might be ok with that or the laissez faire model not so much
Re:Big companies collude to hold down pay. by loewenskind on Friday September 17, 2010 @04:56AM (#1700514)
A cooperation is in a much stronger position than an individual employee. Unions were created to try and make the positions more even.