That's why I still maintain that the Volt is the best engineered option out there. You get the best of both worlds with the problems of neither.

I put gas in my car, probably once every 2-3 months without a work related trip...and that's with me driving about 70 miles a day give or take.

A hydrogen/electric version of the Volt instead of gas/electric would make a lot of sense IMO.

This only works if you live in a house or an apartment that has electric car outlets installed.

Most apartments have no place to plug in your electric vehicle.

Worth pointing out that you can charge an EV from a standard power outlet, even American 120v sockets - this is how I charge my Leaf.

It takes longer, sure, but it's rare that my car will not be at 100% in the morning if I leave it overnight.

Apartments will probably eventually offer electric charging. It's a small investment, and they can turn it into an additional revenue stream (which they love) and/or can advertise it as an amenity that sweetens the deal of leasing there.

However, will they plenty of charging stations, so that you never have to worry about moving your car so someone else can charge? That seems doubtful. I suppose they could allow a monthly lease of a reserved charging station, though.

I doubt they will if they have to pay for it. Apartment complexes, in my experience, hardly retrofit anything. The RE market is so messed up that complexes don’t have to do much of anything to increase their rent. What was there at time of build (be that the 1980s or 90s) is what you’re likely to get.

What the US needs is a political desire for New Deal type programs. Work still sucks outside of 2-4 (?) metropolis areas. Probably a large infrastructure project could get charging stations to the masses at the apartment level, and not much else.

One exception though could be a vast surge in oil prices. We’re talking 7$/gallon.

Subjectively, charging stations are "everywhere" in apartment complexes here in Las Vegas.

It is most certainly not a small investment. Especially considering how few it will benefit.

> I suppose they could allow a monthly lease of a reserved charging station, though.

That's usually how it's done here. And the cost is not negligible at all, more than what I pay in gas each month. And on top of that you pay for the electricity of course. And I'd say that most apartments that even have parking associated with them you will often need to wait years and years to even get a spot (electric or not).

This. Until either home parking or office parking will offer any type of EV charging I'm not buying an EV car, it is not feasible now. I'm definitely not going to do this:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev...

The rental market is a huge barrier to widespread adoption of plug-in electrics.

I don't see it changing without government/tax incentives for the owners, which won't be happening under republican leadership.

I'd assume that public parking will eventually be equipped with chargers.

I second this. From experience, walking out of my house and driving off immedately with a fully-charged car is less trouble than going to a gas station.

Still, we're a two-car family and our second car is ICE (a Subaru). Gasoline is way more convenient than electric for out-of-town weekend trips. I take these trips frequently enough (more than once per month) that I don't want to rely on renting a car every time.

If people would be fully rational, then you would be correct. However, they are not (and shouldn't be imho, but that's another discussion).

Basically, it's about the ability or potential of going anywhere. I bought a car that technically has the ability to go off-road. The reality is that I probably never will. But it sure feels good to know that I could. Paid extra for it and all. Completely irrational, but makes me happy.

That's the reason that people worry about range and refueling time. It's not rational, it's just humane. We aspire to do more , see more and go further. Not all of us do, but it's a very human emotion. That's not a bad thing.

I agree with this when discussing EVs that just can’t practically do long trips at all. Rationally, you save money by buying a cheaper short-range EV and renting a car for trips, but I wouldn’t actually do that.

It’s different when talking about a good long-range EV with a good charging network. Not only are long trips practical, but the speed penalty is pretty small.

I understand what you're saying but I'm just not sure I'm prepared to wait at a service station for an hour or more to recharge my car.

Today I drove from the south east to the Lake District - a distance of about 400 miles. I made 3 5-10 minute stops en route for food, toilet and one for fuel. I found that once I'd stopped for 10 minutes I just wanted to get going again and get to my destination. I'm really not sure I would be happy hanging around a service on the M6 toll road for 1-2 hours because I needed to recharge my car.

I don't often do long trips, perhaps 2-3x a year, but when I do I really just want to get to my destination as soon as possible.

It’s not for everyone. If you really want to just go go go then it will be frustrating.

400 miles is pretty easy, though. In my car (Model S 85), I’d probably plan to stop once a bit past the halfway point for lunch. 20-30 minutes should get enough to finish the trip. That’s assuming I can charge at the destination. If you can’t, it’s tougher.

In a Model S 100D or a Model 3 LR, you could probably stop for only 10 minutes somewhere in the middle. They charge faster (especially the Model 3) and don’t need much extra to make that trip.

Some cars can charge in 30-40 mins, which is a good amount of time for a meal.

My time is precious. Long trips are for rentals if you have a full EV.

As an alternative I drive a Chevy Volt which has a gas run battery charger. While the battery only has a 50 mile range, the gas powered battery charger has about a 250 mile range

My point is that the EV is a net time saver over a hydrogen or normal car, so if your time is precious then it’s a win. The Volt may be even better in that respect, of course.

Only if you can charge at home, have a nice predictable commute, and don't drive too much. That's a sizeable market by itself, but far from what works for everybody.

Charging at home, yes, but driving over 200 miles in a single day is super unusual. I see no need for a predictable commute or not driving "too much" unless it's extreme.

Somebody living in Stockton and coming to clean SV's offices, or serve that nice catered food might be driving about that far. In saner areas of the US regular work commute is probably less, but there's a significant proportion of people who do not sit in the office writing code, but rather drive around doing things -- handymen, plumbers, cleaners, etc. etc.

I’m pretty sure most of those still fit into an EV’s range. There are some who won’t, but it’s a fairly small number.

Stockton to Sunnyvale is 80-100 mils one way. And I imagine working people who have to live in Stockton or Tracy because they can't afford living near work in SV probably aren't buying extended range Teslas. Most likely don't have any chargers at home either.

Someone like that probably can’t afford any EV with a range to even make that trip one way. Affordability isn’t really there yet. That’s something that’s also true with hydrogen cars and so has little bearing on the relative advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen and batteries.

True. Which is why ICE isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But if prices could be brought down (i.e. by mass production), fuel-cell/hydrogen vehicles would work, but electrics still would not.

Although at this time I do wonder what could possibly move one to purchase a Mirai.

Cost and range are closely related when it comes to batteries. A 500 mile range would cover almost everything, and should be practical before too long, and affordable eventually. Tesla’s new Roadster will have a 600 mile range, although the price is absurd.

Eventually, and we don't know what might happen with fuel cell technology before that. It is likely to always be faster to refill.

BEVs are vastly faster to refill in many cases if you measure what really matters (driver waiting time).

If you look at the current state of things, hydrogen cars are even more expensive and are impossible to own in most of the country. That might change in the future but it’s hard to match the infrastructure advantage of having millions of “fueling stations” in the form of electrical outlets, and BEVs continue to improve as well.

Oh, no argument that hydrogen cars are ridiculously priced and practically useless (I guess that's why they only sell them in California).

As battery capacity improves, charging from a regular outlet will only take longer and longer. And driver waiting time is short only if you can charge at home and never care about going anywhere beyond the charging range. It does work for a large number of people, but is a non-starter for a large segment as well.

That's true if you never need to run errands after coming home, visit friends who live an hour away and don't have a charger, etc. etc. Let alone people who actually make a living by driving around.

If you don't have your own charger or access to a free one, commercial chargers aren't necessarily cheaper than gas either. Last time I ran numbers for my wife's plug-in, apart from free chargers (Volta or some municipal ones) putting in gas was cheaper.

Just how far are you driving for errands?

Sometimes 1 mile, sometimes 20. Or I might want to visit friends, who don't have a charger and live 50 miles away.

Sounds fine. With a Model 3 LR, you could have a 100 mile commute each way, do 20 miles for errands, then visit your friend 50 miles away and return home before recharging. And I’m pretty sure 100 mile commutes are highly unusual.

You'd be surprised how far people who do not live in the tech bubble might commute.

The average commute is 25 minutes. Only 2.2 million Americans commute over 50 miles.

That's already 2.2 million people, not an insignificant market.

I started out talking about “typical driving habits,” and 50 miles is still just fine in a decent EV.

2.2 million people is typical enough, I'd say... And it is fine, as long as you actually have somewhere to charge. Where I live (and that's SV, not exactly boondocks) nearest charging station would be 15-20 minutes walking, each way. Costs more than just using gas, too. People commuting 50+ miles would likely have even tougher time finding a nice charger, unless they have their own home and can charge at home EV rate.

Oh come on. The US workforce is over 160 million people. 2.2 million out of that is “typical”?

It's... over 2 million people/vehicles. That's more than population of some countries.

So? “Typical” has nothing to do with how the absolute number compares to other countries. Do your not know what the word means, or are you just being extremely obtuse?

So, you're the one talking about "typical". I am pointing out that there is a rather significant market where current EVs are not workable (FCV would be, if they were reasonably priced, though). And that market really is larger than just people with long commutes. My commute is short enough, but I would end up paying more to charge than I pay for gas, and spending an 30-40 minutes each day just getting to where the car is.

If the autonomous cab future all the companies seem to be hoping for happens, the typical day may change. Not sure what that means for the ideal refueling technology.