News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by gene-h on Thursday April 19, 2018 @06:51PM (#16880861)
Hydrogen offers better prospects for civil aviation than batteries do. Airbus did a study[0] that showed it would be possible to power all civil aviation use cases with cryogenic hydrogen. They even showed that in the near term existing aircraft could be modified to run off of hydrogen for short and medium range. Getting longer ranges would require new aircraft though. They also believe that we could see short range and medium range hydrogen powered aircraft introduced as early as 2015. Of course it's 2018 and this hasn't happened, possibly due to the cost of producing hydrogen.

[0]http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2004_...

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by taneq on Thursday April 19, 2018 @11:12PM (#16881913)
Hydrogen is worse than electric on almost all fronts. Others here have covered the storage issues, but there's also the issue that generating hydrogen is very inefficient compared with just storing the electricity in batteries.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by kristianp on Friday April 20, 2018 @01:23AM (#16882335)
And yet the japanese are still spending money on refuelling stations for hydrogen cars. I don't really understand it, given EVs are taking off by comparison.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/12/honda-toyota-hydrogen-fu...

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by taneq on Friday April 20, 2018 @01:44AM (#16882406)
Can't lose face, gotta double down.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by alex_duf on Friday April 20, 2018 @08:50AM (#16884312)
I think in some narrow use cases it makes sense to use hydrogen.

There's this pilot program going on on a small Scottish Island where they use wind power on overproducing days to produce hydrogen.

That hydrogen is then use for their ferry.

I'm not a hydrogen proponent, far from it in fact, but it does have it's own place for local usages in case of overproduction.

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by oh_sigh on Thursday April 19, 2018 @06:59PM (#16880911)
> possibly due to the cost of producing hydrogen.

Cursory googling claims you can generate hydrogen for $28/million-BTU with electricity @ 5c/kwh. 1 million BTU is about 8 gallons worth of jet fuel, so I would guess that jet fuel is much cheaper than $4/gallon?

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by Hextinium on Thursday April 19, 2018 @07:18PM (#16881006)
Cost runs actually about the same, jet fuel is about $5 dollars a gallon probably cheaper wholesale the issue comes from even though hydrogen produces more 3x energy per kg than jet fuel the energy density is 3x less per unit volume. Meaning you would need bigger fuel tanks per distance travelled which would require modifying the airframe to be bigger in addition to having to add insulation.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by kingnothing on Thursday April 19, 2018 @07:07PM (#16880942)
The nationwide average for Jet A is $4.53 / gal

https://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by asdfadsfgfdda on Thursday April 19, 2018 @07:34PM (#16881086)
Airlines pay much less for jet A than FBO prices, probably closer to $2/gal (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/eer_epjk_pf4_rgc_dpgD.htm).
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by dogma1138 on Thursday April 19, 2018 @07:30PM (#16881068)
Is that the actual current cost or an estimated one based on the cost of the electricity required?

Also hydrogen is much harder and costlier to transport and store (refueling is also not a walk in the park either) than jet fuel.

Cryogenic hydrogen is even more costly on all fronts.

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by greglindahl on Thursday April 19, 2018 @09:32PM (#16881512)
Hydrogen offered better prospects for cars than batteries do... Toyota and others can show you many studies which support hydrogen for cars. Where are the hydrogen-powered cars?
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by dragonwriter on Friday April 20, 2018 @12:33AM (#16882169)
> Where are the hydrogen-powered cars?

I personally see them pretty much every day, mostly Mirais. But then again, I live fairly close to one of the fueling stations.

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by na85 on Thursday April 19, 2018 @10:42PM (#16881789)
There's no hydrogen fuel infrastructure.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by greglindahl on Thursday April 19, 2018 @10:45PM (#16881799)
Right. California subsidized one because it's only fair:

https://cafcp.org/stationmap

It's a losing technology, but at least they were given a chance.

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by dimal on Thursday April 19, 2018 @08:36PM (#16881310)
Hasn't the problem with hydrogen always been actually getting enough hydrogen?
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by DmenshunlAnlsis on Thursday April 19, 2018 @09:22PM (#16881474)
I believe that you’re thinking of Helium. As @deelowe said, the issues with a Hydrogen are safe and stable storage, and the tendency of Hudrogen to penetrate metals and make them brittle. Producing hydrogen is trivial with electrolysis or water, which could be achieved using nuclear and renewable power sources. Of course burning coal to produce Hydrogen is currently cheaper and more common, and an environmental disaster.

The problem with Hydrogen is that you want to store it in big, strong metal containers, but it destroys the container and leaks out. So instead you store it in composite fiber containers, but then you have an explosive gas under pressure in a vessel that can be cracked.

This is part of the reason that research tends to focus on processes within fuel cells which produce hydrogen JIT, so you obviate the need to produce and store large volumes. The problem with that is the need for more power input than you get out, or the need for expensive catalysts like Platinum.

tl;dr

With current tech you need nuclear power to efficiently produce large volumes of Hydrogen, but that’s a political minefield.

Storing Hydrogen is a nightmare.

Hydrogen explodes, and peolle are rightfully wary of carrying and transporting it in large volumes.

The kinds of containers which are affordable and practical are made of materials Hydrogen readily attacks.

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by danellis on Thursday April 19, 2018 @09:50PM (#16881579)
> Hydrogen explodes, and peolle are rightfully wary of carrying and transporting it in large volumes.

Oh, the humanity.

Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by selectodude on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:24AM (#16882563)
You can drop a match into gasoline and it won’t light.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by Piskvorrr on Friday April 20, 2018 @05:09AM (#16883289)
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by deelowe on Thursday April 19, 2018 @09:14PM (#16881454)
I thought it was storage/embrittlement.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by tzakrajs on Thursday April 19, 2018 @10:03PM (#16881626)
Transporation costs make it a real dog. If you put hydrogen generation close to the consumption, then it is a winner.
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by kaennar on Thursday April 19, 2018 @10:45PM (#16881797)
But how much does that generation cost?
Re:Airplanes that fly on electricity debut at Fresno’s Chand... by tim333 on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:04AM (#16882480)
"the most common price is $13.99 per kg (equivalent on a price per energy basis to $5.60 per gallon of gasoline)"

Another problem is the cheapest way to make it is from natural gas. If you are going to use fossil fuels why not just use them directly?