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Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by lordnacho on Thursday April 12, 2018 @06:44PM (#16825642)
> While debate around the use of ICOs continues, Initial Loan Procurements (ILPs) have emerged as a new fundraising method. Similar to an ICO but in the form of loans rather than coin acquisitions, ILPs enable borrowers and creditors to enter into a loan agreement through legally binding smart contracts. With an ILP, a creditor's investment is contractually tied to the performance of the company and eliminates the wild swings of volatility that have been associated with a vast number of ICOs. In simple terms, as long as the company makes a profit, the creditor gets annual returns.

> Two Estonia-based companies, Blockhive and Agrello, have formed a partnership to provide the first ILP of its kind, 'Blockhive'. Blockhive's model removes the issuance of tokens (in the anticipation of future appreciation of those tokens) and replaces it with a contractual entitlement to 20% of their annual operating profits.

That sounds more like equity to me than a loan.

Whatever the structure, it isn't new. Putting it in a fancy blockchain is new, but the agreement to pursue some endeavour and share in the revenues, either as an obligation or as a percentage of profits, is ages old.

And just as old is the fact that you have to actually do what you said with the money, or else it's fraud.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by notahacker on Thursday April 12, 2018 @07:38PM (#16825893)
Yeah. I'm open to the idea of loans being an actual practical use for smart contracts (they are well suited to payment automation and offer some degree of transparency of debtors' use of and receipt of digital assets) but what is actually proposed actually sounds even more like a way for shady startups to earn money from suckers than ICOs. At least with some ICOs there was a theoretical logic behind selling tokens supposedly used to acquire product (and liquidity benefits)

This is just equity crowdfunding with the word blockchain involved, and as a result probably more dishonest or deluded companies and a greater likelihood the securities aren't even legally valid never mind attached to genuine prospects of profit, never mind attached to prospects of profit adequate to make up for the asset's lack of liquidity.

(Reading more details in their terrible white paper, the only difference between this and a completely standard security is that in order to pretend it's a "loan" they've offered to "repay the principal" at "maturity" i.e. buy back the security in 10 years' time at the price you paid for it. Which would theoretically be a good idea for an stock in a low growth business, and also a great way of creating a relatively stable Ponzi scheme...)

Seriously though, just look at this utter nonsense: https://blockhive.ee/ilp

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 12, 2018 @07:00PM (#16825727)
> sounds more like equity to me than a loan

One can structure preferred stock to walk like a bond and quack like a stock (as well as the other way). This structure is an incredibly stupid solution to a regulatory problem.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by wdewind on Thursday April 12, 2018 @07:42PM (#16825926)
> Whatever the structure, it isn't new.

But now maybe it's order of magnitude or two cheaper and so you can do a whole bunch of them where you used to be able to only do a few. Does that change anything? I really don't know, maybe, maybe not. Maybe it makes it practical to break a company up into many many smaller pieces and allow investors to provide more specific investments, or many smaller companies in general, due to greatly reduced legal/operational fees? And maybe that let's you do something cool? Imagine if facebook (or more likely whatever is post facebook) had hundreds of smaller investment vehicles that mapped to teams and projects, and we could all choose not to invest in the privacy invading ones? Or at least had to more explicitly do it?

Sure, it's not philosophically completely novel: structural changes like this fractalize throughout technology and ultimately boil down to "that's just this, but one level of abstraction up," which makes it easy to understand, but doesn't necessarily make it useless. Sure, there's nothing new under the sun, the internet is, after all, just a really fast xerox machine, and we already have libraries.

I don't look at crypto currency and think, "Oh this is obviously the future, fiat currency and banks are bullshit" and I don't even fully buy the argument I made above myself. But when I look at all the criticism to crypto, it looks a helluva a lot like 1993 and "The internet is a fad" all over again. "It's slow, it's shitty, it wont scale, it doesn't solve any real problems for real people, it's better having publishers/banks intermediate this stuff anyway" etc. etc.

We'll see.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 12, 2018 @07:47PM (#16825951)
> now maybe it's order of magnitude or two cheaper

Keeping track of investors and paying them dividends isn’t even close to the most expensive part of fundraising. This is akin to starting a car company differentiated solely by the material of the muffler.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by wdewind on Thursday April 12, 2018 @07:55PM (#16825986)
Sure, that's true if you are raising from a few, relatively speaking, large investors, and also only if you care about fundraising as a one time event, instead of funds management as an ongoing process. The entire point of ICOs seems to be to raise from many small investors at once, perhaps skirting, among other things, accredited investor laws.

Even for large companies: say we want to do my crazy invest at the team level idea: I don't really agree it would be simple to operationalize all of that money flow, and I do actually think having a blockchain could help if that is your goal, which is a big if.

I'm not here to hard sell anyone on crypto, but I also am not comfortable with the wholesale dismissal of it either, so I'm definitely hoping a lot of people disagree with me and we can tease some of this stuff out.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by hndamien on Thursday April 12, 2018 @10:04PM (#16826617)
Accredited investor laws are disgusting. Personally, I'd much prefer to hold securities, tokens, equities, currency on-chain than via some broker. Similarly as a way to accept dividends as well. Having a compliant way of performing this would be fantastic.

Edit: Since we have the downvoters here, does anybody want to defend accredited investor laws? Here is some stimulus material - https://qz.com/431198/this-is-not-a-typo-only-3-of-americans...

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by JumpCrisscross on Thursday April 12, 2018 @11:36PM (#16826963)
> Accredited investor laws are disgusting. Personally, I'd much prefer to hold securities, tokens, equities, currency on-chain than via some broker

These are unrelated. You can hold stocks, bonds and commodities in your own name. It’s inconvenient and carries no advantage over owning them in “street name”. But that isn’t an accredited/un-accredited difference.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by hndamien on Thursday April 12, 2018 @11:40PM (#16826978)
Sure they aren't related, but they are related to the parent comment which mentions both.

I was just stating that the former is a form of discrimination to restrict opportunity and increase wealth disparity. The latter is just a preference. Both were being discussed in the parent comment.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by monochromatic on Thursday April 12, 2018 @11:51PM (#16827014)
Most startups fail.
Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by hndamien on Thursday April 12, 2018 @11:55PM (#16827028)
I fail to see the point. Investors manage their risk-reward profile by investing different percentage amounts of their net worth. The measure of how much money you have or make per year is in no way an indicator of how capable you are in assessing these opportunities. The fact that only 3% of Americans can invest in this vehicle that by your admission mostly fail may be an indicator of this (I'll admit it's not causal, I'm just being cheeky).
Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by crispyporkbites on Friday April 13, 2018 @03:05AM (#16827707)
Typical crowdfunder sites, e.g. Kickstarter, charge 8% + 20p per contribution. With the blockchain you can almost entirely eliminate this down to just raw transaction fees + cost to write the smart contract.

Kickstarter brings some value (e.g. neat landing page, network effects etc.), but 8% is a lot to leave on the table.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by CryptoPunk on Thursday April 12, 2018 @09:33PM (#16826471)
>>That sounds more like equity to me than a loan.

It sounds like the principal and interest paid back is a fixed and predetermined value, rather than proportional to the company's revenue, which would make it a loan.

The innovation here I believe is conditioning repayment obligations on the company having sufficient revenue.

So in a sense it's like a loan contract with a clause allowing you to get a repayment holiday when your business is not earning enough.

This, like all loans, has much less upside potential than equity.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by cies on Thursday April 12, 2018 @06:59PM (#16825723)
I think that ICOs are about the initial creation of a virtual commodity that can easily be made fit for use as currency; and ILPs indeed more like digital IPOs where the shares are traded on-chain instead of on-SE.

Since the trading of the ILP stock happens on-chain, a chain traded virtual "crypto" currency comes in very handy.

> That sounds more like equity to me than a loan.

I agree wholly.

Re:Goodbye ICOs, hello ILPs? by simonebrunozzi on Friday April 13, 2018 @12:49AM (#16827191)
It's almost like equity - the main difference being that with shares you usually get voting power.

IANAL, but I also wouldn't equate ILP to non-voting shares. There's still a significant difference (especially in cases where there's bankruptcy, or company liquidation, or other n cases and exceptions.