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Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by andy_ppp on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:11PM (#16774988)
These jobs that are worth less than $15 per hour are going to be the first to be replaced by machines so whatever happens we need a solution to give people at the bottom high(er) quality lives.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by toomuchtodo on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:21PM (#16775089)
> we need a solution to give people at the bottom high(er) quality lives.

Training and safety nets, funded through tax revenues.

Keep in mind, the national minimum wage in Australia is currently $18.29. The entire US has been getting a discount on minimum wage labor for decades, and everyone is kicking and screaming now that those workers are having their wages ratcheted up to what they should be making when accounting for inflation [1] [2].

[1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/04/5-facts-abou...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/21/adjusted-for-inflation-the-f...

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by comstar on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:45PM (#16775394)
Not to discredit anything you've said, as on the whole I agree with you. But movie tickets are nearly twice as expensive in Australia. [0] [1]

And a popular videogame can be wildly more expensive. MLB The Show 2018 for instance is $60 in the US and $100 in AU. These prices are outside that which is explained by the current exchange rate.

Yes, you are being paid more. The price of living is also drastically higher there. I think there are better case-studies than Australia.

[0] https://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/fact-finders/cinema/indus...

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/187091/average-ticket-pr...

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by toomuchtodo on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:06PM (#16775666)
It should be noted that Australia has a healthcare system substantially more equitable than the US, making the price of discretionary goods and services less of an issue. Real estate, education, and healthcare inflation is a thing (despite the price of TVs and tech coming down year after year) in the US (although I am aware of the steep cost of real estate in AU and NZ due to foreign buyers).

"Australia has a one of the strongest economies in the developed world. It survived the recent recession unscathed and hasn’t had a real recession in 20 years. And as Australian academics have noted, "Australia and New Zealand, with among the highest minimum wages in the world, have both low levels of unemployment and significantly lower levels of low paid employees.

Bankruptcies due to medical costs, which accounted for 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies before the Affordable Care Act, are completely unknown there."

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/laura-chapin/2014/12/09...

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by orbitur on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:34PM (#16781441)
> And a popular videogame can be wildly more expensive. MLB The Show 2018 for instance is $60 in the US and $100 in AU

That's actually easily explained by manufacturers tying their product to the US dollar. We're getting fucked by this in Canada, too. My favorite is when Apple laptops fluctuate by $200CAD in either direction while my salary stays the same.

Just look at a chart of your dollar against the USD. Movies are more local in a sense.

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by ChrisLomont on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:53PM (#16775496)
Cost of living in AUS is decently higher than the US, and they have more exemption categories from minimum wage than the US.

Equivalently to your argument of picking the highest value you can find and claiming others getting a discount, maybe Australia is overpaying for labor, and has been getting less as a result.

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by andrewla on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:44PM (#16775391)
I think this might be a misplaced assumption.

Historically I think it has turned out that machines/computers are really good at jobs that people think are hard, but really bad at jobs that people think are easy.

Machines are great at doing precision machining, which is hard for humans. But they're terrible at walking, which most people can do without difficulty.

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by andy_ppp on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:06PM (#16775684)
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by d0lph on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:55PM (#16775529)
Right, but surely you don't believe that robotics is stuck where it is, we haven't quite figured out everything, but it's still a new field.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by andrewla on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:10PM (#16775727)
Far from it, but this is in response to a comment which explicitly said "These jobs that are worth less than $15 per hour are going to be the first to be replaced by machines". I don't think they'll necessarily be the first, and in some cases will come well after much more highly compensated positions have all but disappeared.

For example, waiting tables is a classic minimum wage job (in fact, in most states in the US, the minimum wage for waiters is actually less than the standard minimum wage because tip income is assumed to make up the difference), and I'm not seeing waiters being replaced in any significant capacity by robots in the near future.

And on the other hand, a difficult job like being a machinist is becoming increasingly obsolete. A master machinist will always be able to find high-paying work, but the market for apprentice or journeyman machinists is drying up very rapidly, because a single master machinist can set the template for a hundred CNC mills and lathes, to the point where the pipeline for master machinists is on life support.

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by gowld on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:28PM (#16775188)
That's not obviously true, and not theoretically well justified. It depends on total workforce size and difficulty of optimizing. Wholly eliminating a $15/hr job is just about as valuable as eliminating 30% of the hours needed at a $100/hr job.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by andy_ppp on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:01PM (#16775602)
I don't understand this and your maths is wrong - it would be 15%? But also the $100 per hour job will just get more complex in a different way and will still take the same hours per day, at possibly some higher efficiency of output.

It's like saying because React has made people more efficient at building bug free user interfaces that we can all relax in our jobs as there is no IE6 to support. Instead we all know that the UI has just got more complex, interactive and shiny.

Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by trophycase on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:27PM (#16775174)
China has people sweeping the streets. Considering how dirty some cities are and how much trash can be found everywhere this isn't a totally unreasonable idea
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by vkou on Friday April 06, 2018 @03:10PM (#16776405)
Why? It makes more sense to automate a $40/hour worker, then a $8/hour one. It's why law offices still have janitors, but have largely replaced junior lawyers combing through the legal library with computers.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by megaman22 on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:24PM (#16775132)
I would predict that there is a lot of work that would otherwise be done, if minimum wage was lower, that simply will not be done at all. Or it'll be done under the table.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by gowld on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:29PM (#16775202)
That's probably true; downvotes are inappropriate. On the other hand, there is also a lot of work that would be done if the economy gets more aggregate demand from low-wage workers.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by matchagaucho on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:22PM (#16775112)
It'll always be cheaper to pay minimum wage to mop floors vs a $250,000+ "AI Mopping Machine" that requires a $55hr Tech to maintain.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by occamrazor on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:25PM (#16775144)
True, until the AI mopping machine is 500$ and it us cheaper to throw it away and replace it when breaks.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by d0lph on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:56PM (#16775547)
It's like every time something new is created, everyone gasps at how expensive it is. Surprise, new technology costs more. I bet cars were prohibitively expensive when the first came out, but now you can get a used one for very cheap.
Re:Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed... by sigstoat on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:09PM (#16775719)
http://store.irobot.com/default/braava-floor-mopping-irobot-...

also janitors with large areas to clean have been operating mopping machines for 30+ years.