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Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by rocqua on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @07:04PM (#16750249)
I also come from a near gun-less country, and think a similar system in America would work. However, there are some arguments in favor of guns that are not trivially ignored.

- Simply, guns are fun. Marksmanship is a serious sport of discipline and self-control.

- Hunting is also great recreation, is sometimes good for population control, and hunting is another reason for preserving and protecting nature.

- Self-defense. Sometimes, you need to use violence for self defense. Guns are a great way to apply violence.

- Independence. Partly, this ties in with self-defense above. Partly, this is about the government applying 'collective punishment' on all gun owners for the action of a very select few. Finally, some of this is about being able to resist a potential unjust government (i.e. the militia mentioned in the second amendment)

Now, all of these points have counter arguments. I think non of them hold up to the point of "we should keep semi-automatic weapons with 30 round magazines". But the arguments exist, and ignoring them isn't gonna help convince those that want to keep their guns.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by pasabagi on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @07:16PM (#16750340)
I'm not American - so I'm not particularly out to convince anybody. I think gun-ownership is really embedded into the deep and often weird tangle of american identity, and it's basically immune to rational argument at this point.

On a purely technical level, I think the problem with the arguments you've mentioned are they don't generally stand on an even footing with the arguments against gun-ownership, except perhaps the one about self defense. Gun violence is a problem that costs lives, tears apart communities, and destroys families. For gun ownership to make sense, it needs to serve a similarly grave purpose. In that vein, only self-defense would fit the bill.

At which point, we break out the statistics - and it turns out that guns are kind of terrible for self defense. I think Americans would be better off just paying more taxes (with the money they would have spent on guns), and spending the money on police or social programs.

That said, many iconic possessions of western society are pretty horrible from a cost-benefit perspective. So I guess guns are just the most egregious.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by dpweb on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @08:12PM (#16750693)
Guns are certainly part of the American identity, for many Americans at least. Sadly, there are some pretty horrible biases and misconceptions as well.

There is a theory that democracy flourishes, when the Government is not that much better armed than its citizens. So, the idea that we need to be armed against tyranny.

There are a couple of problems with this, in present-day America. First, as citizens get better armed with greater lethal force, simultaneously, the police have militarized. So while people are better armed, authorities are too.

The other problem, requires some deeper understanding. Tyranny is always a threat, but the tyrannical government of the 21st century won’t bust in to take your guns. They don’t need to. The tyranny is more subtle, often financial, and when they control public opinion they don’t need to take the guns.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by rocqua on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @07:35PM (#16750465)
Yes, the overarching counter argument is that these aren't good enough reasons given the bad results of legally owned guns.

I also missed the argument "gun-ownership is part of my identity" it is not an argument that comes up, because people don't expect it to convince gun-opponents. But I think it is the main reason opposition to gun-control is so strong. Thank you for pointing that out.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by kelnos on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @07:24PM (#16750389)
> Finally, some of this is about being able to resist a potential unjust government

Anyone who truly believes private citizen gun owners in the US could ever band together and overthrow the US government is deluded, at best. The US military would shut them down in record time.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by rocqua on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @07:32PM (#16750440)
It is indeed, a wrong idea. Nevertheless, it is an idea that needs to be addressed, not swept-aside. The same goes with all the other arguments I mentioned. If we just ignore these and say "There is no possible reason for owning guns" we are essentially arguing in bad faith.

Generally, convincing people isn't helped by immediately dismissing their entire position as trivially wrong and deluded.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by kelnos on Tuesday April 03, 2018 @07:53PM (#16750586)
> Generally, convincing people isn't helped by immediately dismissing their entire position as trivially wrong and deluded.

Who's doing that, though? Seems like a very small minority of people say "there is no possible reason for owning guns" and then refuses to elaborate when presented with possible reasons.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by rocqua on Wednesday April 04, 2018 @03:35AM (#16752786)
Don't open with "there's no possible reason for owning guns". Perhaps open with 'on balance, I think the arguments for gun ownership are far outweighed by the arguments against it'.
Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by kelnos on Thursday April 05, 2018 @05:27PM (#16768908)
Sure. But in that case I'd ask that people on the other side of the debate not open with blatantly absolutist statements as well.

Let's not hold the two sides to different standards of argumentation.

Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by lmlsna on Thursday April 05, 2018 @02:51AM (#16762466)
Keep in mind, the US Military is largely composed of American humans.
Re:Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting by kelnos on Tuesday April 10, 2018 @09:00AM (#16800998)
Sure. I don't think a potential dictator would stand a chance if he/she didn't have the support of the US military, or at least the support of enough of it to suppress the rest. Either way, private-citizen gun owners are a rounding error in the equation. They just don't matter in this scenario.