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Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by scottmsul on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @01:49AM (#16685636)
The real deal is here, from MIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpqA8yG9T4

Apparently there was a recent breakthrough in superconductors, which allows significantly more current in the inductor coils while still maintaining superconductivity. This in turn allows for much stronger magnetic fields, hence tighter confinement of the plasma and therefore more fusion. A standard tokamak with these new superconductors should produce more energy out than energy in, and be a viable source of energy.

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:59AM (#16687439)
Eye opener is the chart at 18:03: "from 1970 to 1995, [fusion] power and energy increased much faster than computing power (Moore's Law)" [1].

Magnetic-confinement fusion stalled, according to Dr. Whyte, because to get more power (and efficiency) we need stronger fields. To get stronger fields we needed bigger magnets. To support bigger magnets one needs bigger structures. Big magnets and big structures will absorb more magnetic and neutron flux; that increases maintenance frequency, complexity and cost.

Better superconductors let us get stronger fields without bigger magnets. That changes the cost function.

[1] https://youtu.be/KkpqA8yG9T4?t=18m3s

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Gravityloss on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @12:25PM (#16690046)
"In 2011, Japanese scientists stumbled across a discovery which increased a metal compound's superconductivity by immersing iron-based compounds in hot alcoholic beverages such as red wine.[40][41] Earlier reports indicated that excess Fe is the cause of the bicollinear antiferromagnetic order and is not in favor of superconductivity. Further investigation revealed that weak acid has the ability to deintercalate the excess Fe from the interlayer sites."

I guess iron based superconductors are a relatively new and hot area of research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron-based_superconductor

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by dver on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @01:31PM (#16690822)
The more I read about this, the more I kept waiting for a Douglas Adams joke. Science is just silly sometimes.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by api on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @09:51AM (#16688315)
The lack of investment in this field is absolutely ludicrous given the potential payoff. I suspect some amount of lobbying by entrenched power and fuel interests that would be rendered obsolete, but I think more blame can be placed on that awful meme that brainwashed a generation of scientists and engineers into dismissing fusion as a boondoggle:

"Fusion energy is 20 years away and always will be."

This shows how much damage a superficial catchy meme can do if it manages to slip in and override more nuanced and informed thinking. It's why I distrust catchy sloganish rules in other fields too, such as "premature optimization is the root of all evil" (leads to erooM's law in software) or "never roll your own cryptography" (discourages people from learning about how to create secure systems), etc.

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by mykull on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:52PM (#16694858)
Your post hit a lot of notes I agree with. Programming dogma doesn't make a lick of sense sometimes. I wonder if the "don't implement cryptography yourself" rule is disingenuous, and really about not necessitating more work from our governmental APTs to get peepholes into everything. I'm also amazed at how often people cry premature optimization when there's potential to reduce hardware cost by orders of magnitude by not writing slow, memory hungry junk by default.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Nomentatus on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:55PM (#16704398)
I feel you. While there's plenty of history (hundreds of years) to indicate you shouldn't rely on rolling your own (though Jefferson did, and did a helluvagood job.) It's crazy easy to fool oneself about how great one's own crypto is. However, what you can do is roll your own and then encrypt your data once again - after that initial encryption - with excellent standard methods. This can allow decryption in parallel in some circumstances - if you want the best speed - by encrypting a one-time-pad with the roll-your-own and sending that in advance (and decrypting that pad in advance, so you just have to xor it into the mix later.) When encrypting fer real, first use the one time pad on the data and then encrypt it with regular methods.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Retric on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @11:23AM (#16689354)
20 years ago they said "Fusion energy is 50 years away and always will be." Soon enough it's going to drop to "Fusion energy is 5 years away and always will be." Which is just silly.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by BrandonMarc on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @11:47AM (#16689609)
We'll still be able to confidently say Virgin Galactic is only 6 months away from sending up paying passengers.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Nomentatus on Wednesday March 28, 2018 @11:57PM (#16704403)
Right. The light at the end of the tunnel recedes until it doesn't.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Neutrion on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:32AM (#16688760)
exactly, these slogan almost look like a doctrination campaign. but this is off topic.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by danbruc on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @03:22AM (#16686104)
Apparently there was a recent breakthrough in superconductors [...]

Recently in this case means mid 1980s. Is the ITER design really that old that they could not make use of YBCO superconductors?

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by IshKebab on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @07:21AM (#16687214)
The recent breakthrough is high current YBCO tape, not YBCO itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_wire#Coated_su...

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by scythe on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @04:33AM (#16686446)
IIRC YBCO can't be feasibly made into wires. However new cuprates have been discovered which are less brittle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth_strontium_calcium_coppe...

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by danbruc on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @05:15AM (#16686636)
I am not an expert but according to Wikipedia BSCCO is not suitable for high magnetic field strengths. In the video - which I only skimmed - the main point seems to be that they can now build vastly smaller fusion reactors because now super conductors supporting higher fields strengths are available and the energy density of a fusion reactor scales with the fifth power of the magnetic field strength. They also specifically mention rare earths which does not match BSCCO which were, last but not least, also discovered in the late 1980s.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by mng2 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @06:03AM (#16686849)
The biggest question in my mind about the ARC proposal is how well these new superconductors stand up to radiation. This is a concern for ITER as well, which uses more traditional superconductors. The ARC team is looking into it, but I'm going to remain unenthusiastic about ARC until they've really proven out the concept.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @04:16PM (#16692327)
Around 33 minutes into the presentation he does address radiation briefly, noting that it's favorable because most of the issues relate to the ceramic insulators in traditional SC magnets. In their design, the steel structural component of the tape serves as the insulator; they just wind up the SC tape and the current travels along that 1um SC layer.

More generally, the demountable coils suggests that designs could be made where the magnets are replaceable with some degree of economy.

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by tudelo on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:05AM (#16688454)
Preface: I know nothing about this.

How can it "produce more energy out than energy in"? I don't know if I am not aware of what you mean by that, but that doesn't seem possible?

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by isk517 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16688663)
Current fusion reactors require more energy put into them to start and maintain the fusion reaction than is harvested from the actual fusion reaction. Better superconductors means it will take much less energy to start and maintain fusion and thus the reactors should produce energy rather than consume it. It doesn't break the laws of thermodynamics since the energy produced is from fusing hydrogen into lower energy state helium, just currently we use more energy than the process produces to make it happen.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by tgb on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:16AM (#16688570)
It depends on what you count as "energy in". A solar panel produces more energy out than it takes in - if you don't count the sunlight as "energy in." A fusion reactor (hopefully) produces more energy out than energy in if you don't count the fuel used. Current designs require us to have another massive power source keeping the reaction going.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by taeric on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @11:12AM (#16689243)
Aren't there some reactors that produce more fuel than they spend?
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by opwieurposiu on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @11:24AM (#16689361)
Deuterium-Tritium fuelled reactors can produce Tritium by wrapping the reactor walls in a "blanket" of lithium. The lithium captures neutrons and transmutes into Tritium. It should be possible to produce an more tritium then the reactor requires, but no one has actually done it yet for fusion reactors. Fission "fast" reactors can do something similar by turning uranium into plutonium. This has been demonstrated by several countries but so far has been uneconomic.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Nomentatus on Thursday March 29, 2018 @12:03AM (#16704423)
Breeder reactors are possible because elements above the atomic weight of iron are storing a lot of energy that's released if you can bust them up (fusion.) Iron is the least (stored) energetic state, so below iron, fusion releases energy. It's a real nasty process to control, though since neutron radiation tears the shit out of container metals over time.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by taeric on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @12:07PM (#16689845)
Thanks for the details. I don't think I even have to confess that my knowledge here is rudimentary. I just finished Atomic Awakening and I remember the phrase popping up a few times.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by ivanhoe on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:15AM (#16688561)
Energy IN in this context is the energy needed to make the fusion possible and controllable, and energy OUT is what you get from the reactor. For this to work as a generator you want out to be bigger than in, obviously.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by tudelo on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:27AM (#16688689)
I see. So the OP is just saying that it is above the breakeven point, as in we are not losing energy from running it. Seems like a pretty low bar for energy production :). FWIW, that is a pretty misleading statement when not contextualized and some people could become very confused.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by supermdguy on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:15AM (#16688562)
The energy produced by the fusion reaction is greater than the energy required to make the fusion reaction occur. The extra energy comes from inside the atoms being fused, it's not appearing out of nowhere.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by mark-r on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:08AM (#16688489)
That's the whole point of fusion: it produces energy. But you can't do anything practical with it until you have a reactor that produces more power than it takes to run.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by spacehome on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:18AM (#16688601)
The parent is pointing out that mass-energy is conserved. There's nothing that can produce it.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by gryfft on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:17AM (#16688586)
To clarify, it produces energy equal to the difference between the mass of the fuel and the mass of the final byproduct multiplied times the speed of light squared. Energy and mass are conserved, but some mass is converted into useful energy.

Doing so in a way that produces sufficient energy to sustain the fusion reaction without creating an uncontrolled reaction ("boom") is the trick that always seems to be 30 years away.

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by orclev on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:54AM (#16689004)
> Doing so in a way that produces sufficient energy to sustain the fusion reaction without creating an uncontrolled reaction ("boom") is the trick that always seems to be 30 years away.

Uh, no, not really, a run away fusion reaction has never really been a concern. In fact, that's one of the biggest advantages of a fusion reactor vs. a fission reactor. Fission is a self-sustaining reaction, once it starts you have to work to stop it (via injecting a mediator to interfere in the fission reaction), where as fusion requires constant energy input in order to maintain the reaction. The part that "always seems to be 30 years away", is achieving a fusion reaction that produces more energy than it takes to maintain (allowing some of the output energy to be siphoned off to maintain the reaction). There have been a number of techniques attempted to achieve this with the holy grail being so called "cold" fusion, where cold is defined in this context as something less than the surface temperature of the sun. It sounds like the ultimate solution to the problem though is simply better magnets, not cold fusion at all.

Assuming this pans out, the real thing needed to make this viable as something other than a novelty is how much more efficient the reaction can be made. After all, if the output energy is just barely over the input energy you'd need to scale out to ridiculous extremes to produce enough usable energy, but if it's a significant amount higher then that makes more modest size plants viable.

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by luke0016 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:36AM (#16688792)
It's the opposite of fission. Fission produces energy by "destroying" matter (splitting it into smaller parts). Fusion produces energy by creating it (combining it into larger parts). The difference in mass between the inputs and outputs manifests as energy. In simple mathematical terms, thanks to Einstein, E=mc^2
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by slavik81 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @02:35PM (#16691461)
I don't quite understand what mass is lost. I thought fusion involved overcoming the electrostatic forces to get two protons close enough that they are pulled together by a nuclear force, thus releasing the nuclear potential energy. But, you start with two protons, and you end with two protons, so what's the mass that's converted to energy?
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by slavik81 on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @05:21PM (#16692835)
Apparently I was mistaken. They don't just make a weird hydrogen isotope. They make plain-old hydrogen. 4 protons become 2 protons and 2 neutrons. The difference in mass between a proton and a neutron is 2.3×10^-30 kg. So, naively, you'd generate 4.1×10^-13 J per helium atom. Or, roughly 11 GJ (3 Mwh) per litre of helium at STP.

Seems a little low, though I suppose 1L is only 1/5th of a gram of helium. I still might be missing something, too.

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by mykull on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @10:15AM (#16688565)
Previously its been possible to do contained fusion but the energy cost of containment was as high or higher than what could be gleaned from the reaction. Youre right to assume there can't be any new energy out of nowhere, it comes from the atoms smashing together and becoming a new element.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Nomentatus on Thursday March 29, 2018 @12:00AM (#16704412)
Campfires "produce more energy out than energy in" too - the kindling is energy in, but once you've established a chain reaction (no, not an out-of-control chain, but yes a self-sustaining chain) you get warm. Exothermic.
Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by SEJeff on Tuesday March 27, 2018 @11:33AM (#16689483)
But have they made any strides in manufacturing tokamaks, or are they still insanely difficult to build?

This superconductor breakthrough also seems relevant to Stellarators such as Germany's new(ish) Wendelstein 7x: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendelstein_7-X

Re:Lockheed Martin has obtained a patent for a compact fusio... by Nomentatus on Thursday March 29, 2018 @12:07AM (#16704434)
Well, this is the stride. If I remember (I watched the video weeks ago) building them smaller, with the steel part of the tape doing a lot of the work means you can build and swap modules to create a far smaller tokamok or stellerator that you can immerse. The same topologies can and would be used - perhaps with more stable containment (for reasons I forget.)