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Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by kenjackson on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @01:13AM (#1668132)
Can Open Office and/or Google Apps access OLAP datastores as well as Excel can SSAS? Do either versions of their word processor have programmability layers so we can develop workflows directly in our office documents?

Across all departments we have probably close to a million lines of VBA, COM, and VSTO code that we use most in Word and Excel. And a little for Outlook. And I just recently, like last week, seen some incredible stuff integrating Pivot, Silverlight, and Sharepoint. Sure it's enterprise and not Web 2.0 social web, but its the type of stuff that makes CIO cough up millions of dollars.

We've looked at Open Office and Google Apps in years past and they were literally at MS Office 2000 level. If all you want to do is write a memo, Word, OpenOffice, GoogleDocs, or Notepad will work fine.

When you're in a real enterprise with real enterprise needs, the features in Office that you think no one uses, are a huge win businesses. And once you're using Office, BizTalk and Sharepoint just bring everything together.

And the other tool that only MS has is Visual Studio. Still hands down the best dev environment I've used.

We should be clear. Windows has never been the only OS choice. IMO it has always been Office that has been the key to MS dominance. And while pundits, who generally aren't in the enterprise, think that world can move away from Office. I think just the opposite. The new features, that aren't of general use to Joe Schmoe, make it more invaluable for the enterprise.

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by stoney on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @07:38AM (#1668612)
IMO it has always been Office that has been the key to MS dominance

I completely agree. Excel is the thing that keeps me tied to Windows (and no, the Mac version of Excel isn't the same). It is by far the best software I have used for small to medium complexity data analysis (at some point you have to pull out the really heavy lifting number crunching tools, but they have even less open source competition), and it is the only software I have used that meets most of my needs and is also approachable to relative beginners.

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by wrs on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @01:27AM (#1668161)
FYI, Google Docs got worse since you looked at it. It's now at about MacWrite (circa 1984) level. Oh, and it broke compatibility with old documents (something Microsoft knows not to do!).
Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by giblet on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @06:27AM (#1668514)
I think the point was that startups, without a million lines of VBA and friends (terrifying), may get hooked on non-MS software because it's free/cheap.

So in X years they'll be rocking their Palo server and a million lines in to OpenOffice Basic (also terrifying), wondering why more people don't use Google Wave v2.

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by rohitarondekar on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @05:30AM (#1668459)
"And the other tool that only MS has is Visual Studio. Still hands down the best dev environment I've used."

http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by gokhan on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @11:00AM (#1669023)
VS + Resharper might be a better alternative.
Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by GeneralMaximus on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @12:03PM (#1672270)
> Can Open Office and/or Google Apps access OLAP datastores as well as Excel can SSAS? Do either versions of their word processor have programmability layers so we can develop workflows directly in our office documents?

Could you expand on this? What kind of "workflows" are you building? I can understand programming Excel, but how do you program Word and what do you use it for?

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by SecurityMatters on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @05:27AM (#1668455)
I don't know about accessing OLAP databases, but it seems like a bad idea, anyway. The programmability of OpenOffice is quite powerful and workflows can and are automated with it.

Visual Studio is not bad for people with little understanding of development. Unfortunately, CS schools turn out many people like that these days. I don't know why people want tools that get in the way and slow you down as much as Visual Studio, but it is popular.

To me, the built in unreliability of Windows is something I wonder why more people don't focus on. Building your business processes around something that needs proprietary tools that can disappear with little notice just seems crazy.

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by NumberFiveAlive on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:44PM (#1673621)
I also don't get the built in unreliability comment, either. Windows has been pretty darn stable since they went to the NT kernel. Really, all three main desktop OSs are pretty stable these days. I get a BSOD on Windows 7 maybe once every six months or so, and that's with ~8 hours a day in front of a windows box at work. I'd rate my OSX home box just slightly less stable than that, but when you're talking about such infrequent crashes, who really cares? These aren't the halcyon days of Windows 95/OS 7 with half a dozen lockups a day.
Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by SecurityMatters on Thursday September 09, 2010 @06:26AM (#1674945)
I was talking about reliability, not stability. The activation Windows has used for a while makes the product unreliable. This may not be obvious at first. I had a client with a computer problem, which ended up needing some replacement hardware. The computer needed reactivation, and the owner asked me what assurance she had that it could be activated in another 3 years when some other part died. The computer was running a very expensive piece of vertical industry software that only ran on one version of Windows. I read everything I could find and talked to several senior Microsoft engineers. The answer is that nothing assures that I'll be able to activate Windows to keep a business critical process running. I get vague statements that the engineers can't see why Microsoft would stop the activations, but nothing I can tell someone to bet their business on. I can understand why most people don't see this problem. I did not see it, until prompted by a customer.
Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by NumberFiveAlive on Thursday September 09, 2010 @08:08AM (#1675063)
Ok, yeah, I've run into that before, and it is a pain. But I've heard that if you call Microsoft they'll always reactivate a license in that situation.
Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by bruceboughton on Tuesday September 07, 2010 @12:38PM (#1669309)
> Visual Studio is not bad for people with little understanding of development.

You do know that Visual Studio is not just a drag-and-drop visual designer tool right? This is the most insulting gibberish I've read all day.

Re:Ask HN: what does Microsoft sell that you can't get for f... by SecurityMatters on Thursday September 09, 2010 @06:36AM (#1674953)
Yes, I know that. And, I have seen developers at a loss of what to do when some gui developer tool is not available. One problem is the use of the gui tool seems to put people too far from what is really going on. Most users probably need a gui to be productive. A gui may be productive for some developer tasks, but a developer should understand what is really happening and be able to work without one.

I work mostly in Python, and that affects my view, I am sure. But, even when I did mostly c/c++, I knew it was useful to be able to ssh to a foreign machine, edit a file and recompile and execute a program.

The view I expresses is one I also hear from other developers. I cannot help how you perceive it, but it is still true.