How knowing Lisp destroyed my programming career (2006)

Re:How knowing Lisp destroyed my programming career (2006) by segmondy on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:04AM (#16584792)

Code generation is great. If you have a well understood domain, Lisp macros allows you to construct an effective DSL so that your programmers no longer have to write "lisp code" but to program in the new language. We do this today using functions/methods, but the issue tends to be that besides understanding these functions, we need to learn how to orchestrate them and write boiler code all around them. A good DSL hides all that. The issue as I've observed is that when most people create a DSL, they really forget that they have indeed created a new language and don't document it enough. The consumers of the DSL because they can read lisp code, don't focus and live in the DSL layer but wish to peer below then get terrified when they see the macros. Most developers get terrified when they peer one level below. Have you seen the bytecode generated by python or asm code by C? Do you think those are bad because those are code generation that don't look the way you think they ought to?

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Re:How knowing Lisp destroyed my programming career (2006) by jstimpfle on Wednesday March 14, 2018 @10:20AM (#16584917)

> We do this today using functions/methods, but the issue tends to be that besides understanding these functions, we need to learn how to orchestrate them and write boiler code all around them.

No, you need to structure your data in a way that there is almost no boilerplate, and only very little glue code (which effectively amounts to "the macro code", with the difference that it's only executed once per data object).

> Do you think those are bad because those are code generation that don't look the way you think they ought to?

Good point, but I have a strong belief that the abstractions offered by C (function calls and good syntax for arrays and records) are sufficient and going up is detrimental for larger systems. I don't code in assembler because typically there is too much redundancy (function call convention) and it's too specific (architecture dependent) and probably too verbose. That said, I'm not strongly against it, but haven't really tried.

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