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Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jeffreyrogers on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:01PM (#16548095)
I don't understand the tweet early in the article. It seems to imply that cities aren't accommodating enough of people with alternative lifestyles? They're more accommodating than anywhere else. Maybe I'm reading what the author meant backwards.

In any case, we are currently working out as a society how to make cities livable as more and more people try to move into the same space, but I don't think bringing up distinctions like straight/gay, liberal/conservative, etc. is very productive.

And developers don't build single family homes in the suburbs and luxury highrises downtown for nefarious reasons. They build them there because you make more money that way.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by Karrot_Kream on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:33PM (#16548321)
I believe (though am not sure) that the tweet is posed in the context of San Francisco Bay Area. The Sunset neighborhood, which is shown in subsequent pictures, is a neighborhood with remarkably lower density than the neighborhoods in SF that lie East of Stanyan. Likewise, the proposal to ensure that zoning is more permissive around mass transit stops (pushed by Weiner) is specifically attacking cities that have refused to increase zoning density despite the inflix of residents.

I also do think bringing up this distinction is important. A conservative, landed gentry has controlled Bay Area cities and their zoning laws for decades now and are ferociously resisting a change to their ideas of normal. The article presents examples with how this gentry specifically casts the pro-urban Bloc, with a hammer and sickle flag, and hippie clothing, not to mention the minorities falling out of the buildings. Folks who made those images seem to explicitly see high density housing as not only an affront to the look of the neighborhood, but an afront on their values. To deny that this is a war between 2 different views of the way a city should behave culturally, and to explicitly ignore the anti-queer and anti-minority imagery, is to be both intellectually dishonest and inaccurate.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jeffreyrogers on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:46PM (#16548403)
I don't know anything about San Francisco, so I can't comment on any anti-queer/anti-minority imagery. The article certainly didn't provide evidence for it. But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Is Sunset really that conservative?
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by Karrot_Kream on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:54PM (#16548461)
You're right, the article didn't provide evidence for it, though it did add two pictures with anti-minority and anti-hippie imagery (without attribution).

> But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue?

I wish I could provide you something more than this, but in my anecdotal experience as a minority in many ways, yes. I don't have the statistical evidence to agree or disagree though.

> I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right?

Berkeley has less of it (again, in my anecdotal experience as a minority) than most other parts of the Bay. Most of Berkeley's NIMBYism seems to be confined to parts around North Berkeley.

> Is Sunset really that conservative?

From my time in the neighborhood, yes. It was older and more racially segregated than other parts of SF for sure. The neighborhood tended to be split into Chinese (mostly Cantonese) and white sections, and even when neighbors were of different races, most people stuck to a clique. Residents were also much older (older than my parents). Again though, this is just my anecdotal experience.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by adrianratnapala on Monday March 12, 2018 @11:08PM (#16573643)
> But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism ...

Well if we take the words "conservative" and "liberal" literally, then a landed gentry trying to keep the status quo that advantages them is conservative almost by definition. While people wishing to permit other things are liberal -- at least on that issue.

But whether that maps onto the American tribal labels of "conservative" and "liberal" is a different matter. As far as I know, Republicans and Democrats are both split on these issues.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by danans on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:12AM (#16550074)
> The article certainly didn't provide evidence for it. But is this really a liberal vs. conservative issue? I've heard Berkeley has similar NIMBYism, and that's a very liberal area, right? Is Sunset really that conservative?

Liberal/conservative on civil rights and social issues isn't the right model to use to understand the sides of this issue.

It's more of an intergenerational conflict amplified by differences in wealth and income. In the Bay Area, the NIMBY contingent tends to skew to the older (i.e. baby boomer, early gen-X) generation, especially the more wealthy (in $ and property) among them.

The YIMBY crowd skews to the younger generations (late gen-X to millenials), who sometimes have good incomes, but lack the wealth/capital to afford the local housing market as it is currently configured.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by politician on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:04PM (#16548809)
"landed gentry"

Come on now, let's at least use the right words. These folks are "homeowners", not the wealthy living off of rental properties. Used improperly, that term is exclusionary.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_gentry

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by closeparen on Thursday March 08, 2018 @11:21PM (#16549769)
You can become a homeowner by saving for a few years and then committing a healthy portion of your middle-class wage to a mortgage. You become landed gentry by being in the right place at the right time in a way that normal people who come after you can’t replicate (unless they’re your heirs), and then participating in a political system that keeps your inferiors in line.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by politician on Saturday March 10, 2018 @02:43PM (#16559837)
I understand that you're trying to stretch this term to fit the SF situation, but the reality is that no one can become "landed gentry" outside of the British, Polish, or Chinese systems and also by traveling back in time to when these social classes operated.

Due to the impossibility of becoming "landed gentry" in the modern United States of America -- in the same way that being knighted is likewise impossible here -- using the phrase to describe a group of people is taken as intentionally misapplying a metaphor to insult, divide, denigrate, and bully the target group.

When folks misuse a term like "landed gentry" that tells me that the argument they want to signal is that "those people" are evil and bad while "our people" are good and honorable. Therefore, those people's homes should be taken away and replaced with high density housing for our people. That's certainly an argument. I personally don't find it particularly compelling, but I'm not an SF voter.

As far as MWOD, that publication might consider reviewing whether or not they should be making such low quality definitions publicly available -- it's a sad day when you're upstaged by Urban Dictionary [1].

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=landed+gentr...

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by Karrot_Kream on Thursday March 08, 2018 @07:19PM (#16548879)
Merriam-Webster[1] says: "wealthy people who own land ". I didn't realize there was a specific UK definition to this term though, thanks!

[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landed%20gentry

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by politician on Saturday March 10, 2018 @03:05PM (#16559905)
After mulling over your response for a bit, I wanted to reach out and clarify that this term is not really "UK specific". Consider "knighthood", the British, as well as other countries granted knighthood to their subjects - "knight" is not "UK specific". That does not make "knight" universally applicable, however. For instance, one cannot become a knight of the United States of America. Likewise, "landed gentry" is a title granted to people under British, Polish, and Chinese systems in the past.

It's debatable whether MWOD is guilty of playing a dangerous game of propaganda by peddling low quality definitions online with high SEO. They have an ethical obligation to not revise words out from under the population unless, of course, they are a non-neutral party with a particular agenda.

It's not fair to people, like yourself, who want to advance strongly-felt arguments to spoil those arguments with terms based on these weak definitions just because they showed up high in Google Search results.

As the terms our society uses to communicate continue to degrade into group-specific definitions, we will generally lose the ability to communicate effectively across groups; and, in turn, the ability to compromise and negotiate in good faith.

In other words, one's political opponents might interpret a speech differently due to the use of a different dictionary rather than (merely) disagreement with a particular argument.

To glimpse at one dystopian future, consider that the recent phenomenon of declaring one's personal pronouns might soon include identification of one's personal dictionary, one's personal thesaurus, one's personal collection of idioms, and one's personal grammar.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by apsec112 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:16PM (#16548207)
In the US, cities and development are essentially centrally planned. For any given piece of land, the city dictates exactly what kind of building can go there, how tall, how wide, how many stores or housing units, what kind of businesses can be there (if retail/commercial), how large the yards are, where the building is on the lot, etc., often down to things like the color of paint on the window shutters. It's illegal to build luxury skyscrapers in the suburbs. Indeed, it's illegal to build anything except detached single family houses with two parking spaces on plots of land measuring 100 feet by 80 feet with twenty feet of side yard and fifteen feet of front yard and two stories tall but with the second story having half the floor area of the first story and etc etc etc., the laws are very detailed and give zero room for any variations.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by contrahax on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:34PM (#16548328)
Out of the 30ish thousand cities in the US how many have insane zoning policies like that? You might be thinking of HOA rules or CC&Rs, which are not centrally planned by the government. I agree that most zoning is stupid/overboard but your examples are just not true. I'm sure you can find some examples that are overly strict but for the most part we're just talking density (how many stories can it be) and usage.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by apsec112 on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:38PM (#16548346)
Virtually all of them do. If you don't believe me, please do read your neighborhood's zoning code. I have no idea where you live, but if it's in the US and outside of a handful of neighborhoods built before WWII and grandfathered in (Manhattan, downtown Chicago, etc.), I'll bet you $100 to $10 that there are rules pretty much like what I described.

EDIT: Here is an excerpt from the zoning code of Newark, Delaware, a random smallish city I happened to visit five years ago:

"(1) Minimum lot area. Except as specified in Article XVI, Section 32-56.2(a) of this chapter, the minimum lot area for any dwelling or permitted nonresidential use, together with accessory buildings, shall be as follows: a. RH—One-half acre. b. RT—15,000 square feet. c. RS—9,000 square feet. (2) Maximum lot coverage. The maximum lot coverage for any building, exclusive of accessory buildings, shall be 20%, and the total maximum lot coverage, including any building, accessory buildings, and manmade improvements on the ground surface which are more impervious than the natural surface and which are used for parking and driveways, but not including swimming pools, patios, terraces, outdoor grills, and similar facilities not intended for parking, shall be 44%. (3) Minimum lot width. Except as specified in Article XVI, Section 32-56.2(b) of this chapter, the minimum width of a lot shall be as follows: a. RH—100 feet. b. RT—90 feet. c. RS—75 feet."

It goes on like this for hundreds and hundreds of pages.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jeffreyrogers on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:32PM (#16548316)
Sure, but zoning is largely done for economic reasons. And cities without zoning (e.g. Houston) end up similar to cities with it. I don't think it changes that there's not an active effort to segregate cities or keep people with alternative lifestyles away.[0]

[0]: There was some of this in NYC when Robert Moses was the central planner, but it's hard to argue it's continued today.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by nrook on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:42PM (#16548382)
https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/rental-market/apartment-rent-r...

According to this site, rental prices in Houston were less than a third of prices in San Francisco in June 2017 ($1046 vs $3441).

That sort of difference is certainly going to drive away less affluent people.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by oftenwrong on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:40PM (#16548355)
Houston doesn't have zoning, but it has development regulations that include many of the same restrictions found in the zoning codes of other US cities.

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/DevelopRegs/

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jeffreyrogers on Thursday March 08, 2018 @05:52PM (#16548444)
From the webpage: "The City codes do not address land use."

These regulations appear to deal with things like setbacks, street access, etc. but it sounds like you can do whatever you want on the land. I think these regulations are just to deal with how to divide up a parcel of land, rather than to regulate anything you do with it.

Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by TheCoelacanth on Friday March 09, 2018 @12:36PM (#16553353)
A huge portion of most zoning codes is made up of that kind of regulations. Land use restrictions are only one tiny aspect of zoning regulations.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by tbihl on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:54PM (#16548775)
And, independent of local zoning, our financial system drives hard for the type of stuff that zoning also reinforces. When easy capital supports single family houses and large projects, everything in between is crowded out.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by jeffreyrogers on Friday March 09, 2018 @09:56AM (#16552116)
That was the point I was trying to make above. Zoning is more a reflection of what is most profitable for developers, so you get similar results in cities with zoning and without.
Re:Urbanism and Standards of Respectability by closeparen on Thursday March 08, 2018 @11:15PM (#16549756)
Bringing more “normal,” traditionally suburban people into cities dilutes the countercultures currently living there, and the suburban middle class tends to outcompete the existing counterculture when space is reallocated through the market. This leads to policies that minimize the role of the market in allocating urban space.