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Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by mmjaa on Saturday March 03, 2018 @08:43AM (#16509222)
Personally, I enjoy Linus' rants on a regular basis. They are the perfect antidote to total idiocy that happens in the Linux software world at times. I've very rarely ever found his point of view to be incorrect, and the abrasion that occurs is a great way to rub the shine off a lot of bullshit.

I know people find it uncomfortable or rude, but I think its a necessary feature of a great leader when dealing with an unruly mass of, generally speaking, mostly arrogant, mostly privileged individuals.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by digi_owl on Saturday March 03, 2018 @09:03AM (#16509283)
Sadly while he may be running the kernel development quite well, he defends some serious idiocies when it comes to his dive log software Subsurface.

Such as defending the bundling of modified libs, thus making it hard (if not impossible) to package for various distros.

And rather than noticing this as being very similar to what he has ranted about others doing in the past in userspace, he joins in attacking said distros...

Edit (because apparently i am "posting too fast"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_(software)

See the last few parts, and citenotes 9 and 10.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by adnzzzzZ on Saturday March 03, 2018 @10:08AM (#16509527)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8&t=5m40s

What he's talking about is on the video above and it's a very reasonable point. I just released a game with Linux support and most of the bug reports I got were from people running the game on different distributions and random libraries not being the version you would expect it to be. This is not to mention that I got way more bug reports from Linux users than Windows users, despite Linux users making up 2%-3% of the playerbase. His point is absolutely valid and not at all a "serious idiocy".

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by JepZ on Saturday March 03, 2018 @10:29AM (#16509621)
Just out of curiosity: Is you game open source (so every distribution builds it with their libraries) or is it distributed in binary format and are you using a custom engine or something well known like UE4/Unity?

I am asking this because just yesterday, I tried to run the steam streaming client and it kept crashing. As far as I can tell, because it must have been compiled with a different compiler or glibc than the rest of my system.

In fact, with closed source software I see a lot of problems in the Linux space which could be solved by recompiling, but that simply isn't possible. The reason behind all this is probably that Linux systems are just not build for closed source software as the devs keep changing things which would be required for that (e.g. stable ABIs).

Btw. does anybody know if there are tools out there to obfuscate code for games, so that they could release their code in a form which some distribution could compile, but which is too obfuscated for someone else to make use of it (e.g. steal the game)?

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:02PM (#16510177)
If Linux Desktops had a stable and consistent base system, no one would need to recompile anything. That's the actual solution here. It's way way simpler to do than what you're suggesting.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by bhaak on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:22PM (#16510308)
Which of the other desktop OS has a stable AND consistent base system?

Microsoft is backwards compatible to an insane degree. Which gives you stability but not consistency.

OSX is consistent but Apple throws out backwards compatible features every other year, so not really stable.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by lttlrck on Saturday March 03, 2018 @02:33PM (#16511079)
OSX is at least predictable and therefore from a developers perspective it is arguably stable.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by bhaak on Saturday March 03, 2018 @06:30PM (#16512348)
Linux is fine for developers as well.

But for users, it doesn't help if you bought a tool last year and it gets non functional because Apple removed or tightened down a function in their OS.

You can only hope than that the developers are still around and update it if that's even possible.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by acomjean on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:44PM (#16510445)
Linux could really use a "It just works" solution for desktop apps.

I think its significantly holding back desktop and laptop adoption. Besides all the distros and multiple desktop environments, all these permutations seems like its holding back applications. I use a cluster compute environment but my client is a mac. If apple can make a "unix" that runs applications well, why can't linux. (I can't code it but I would buy it)

I don't want a separate vm or container for each app I run.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by stjohnswarts on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:58PM (#16510523)
I have my fingers crossed for snap packages. I've only installed the spotify 'snap' and it works flawlessly. I haven't mucked about with any other packages yet
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday March 03, 2018 @01:16PM (#16510637)
Ugh. Snap is so f'ing over engineered. Linus chose AppImage for a reason. It's only a slightly over engineered implementation of Application Directories, which is the simple solution to this problem.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by em3rgent0rdr on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:47PM (#16510466)
Well some breakage is the unfortunate inevitable consequence of progress.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by diggernet on Saturday March 03, 2018 @11:10AM (#16509875)
They could compile it to the JVM...
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by em3rgent0rdr on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:46PM (#16510457)
There are some new methods of linux software distribution comming out, such as Snap packages and AppImages which fix the problem of library incompatibility.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by digi_owl on Saturday March 03, 2018 @01:45PM (#16510814)
They fix jack shit. They bandage over a festering wound, but do not actually do anything about the wound itself. Because the wound is cultural, not technical.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by digi_owl on Saturday March 03, 2018 @11:17AM (#16509919)
Thing is that he is blaming distros for the situation, when distros are trying their level best to make things usable while upstream keeps changing the "rules".
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by icedchai on Saturday March 03, 2018 @11:38AM (#16510050)
He should be blaming their distros. It's their policies causing these problems, not a true technical issue. They should include those (modified) libraries as part of his app's package, where only his app uses them. This is actually the simplest way to package anything: include all the dependencies, isolated from the rest of the system. He's right, Mac and Windows figured this out ages ago.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by lobster_johnson on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:24PM (#16510318)
Indeed, while macOS has global libraries ("frameworks") such as Cocoa, Core Data and so on, which are obviously versioned along with the OS (with a semver type system to handle compatibility issues), user libraries are typically bundled together with the app. While macOS comes with shared libraries in /usr/lib such as like readline, LibXML and OpenSSL, trying to use them from an app is almost always a bad idea, most of all because the libraries tend to be very old. Many Homebrew packages have an install flag to control whether they should link to the system libraries or provide their own.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by CJefferson on Saturday March 03, 2018 @09:53AM (#16509463)
He is consistent in my opinion. His problem is that most libraries don't try to avoid breaking programs, unlike the kernel.

I've started distributing an exact version of boost and gmp with my programs and refusing to accept bug reports generated from using other versions. Life is too short (when unpaid) for the pain caused by exactly the problems Linus is describing.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by digi_owl on Saturday March 03, 2018 @11:16AM (#16509908)
He is blaming the distros though and not the upstream libs for the problem.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday March 03, 2018 @11:58AM (#16510159)
Someday I really hope the Linux Desktop community pulls its head out of its ass and realizes that building their system the way they do and distributing software the way they do is the reason no one really cares about them. I mean ffs, even Linus can't distribute consistently runnable and stable binary software without completely bypassing all the distro stupidity.

As far as I'm concerned, choosing AppImage is just more evidence that Linus is a smart and practical dude who makes reasonable decisions.

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by stjohnswarts on Saturday March 03, 2018 @01:00PM (#16510536)
I sort of agree. I wouldn't use linux except for programming tasks unless the major distros like fedora and ubuntu had everything that I needed for the most part. Most people can't compile code and go off and figure out library issues if the build goes belly up.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by em3rgent0rdr on Saturday March 03, 2018 @12:50PM (#16510490)
"even Linus can't distribute consistently runnable and stable binary software without completely bypassing all the distro stupidity"

Incorrect. AppImage is used to distribute Linus's Subsurface in distro-agnostic manner, by packaging all needed libraries with the binary.

Even Linus gives his endorsement, "This is just very cool." so that means a lot.

https://appimage.org

Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday March 03, 2018 @01:18PM (#16510646)
Somebody skipped the rest of my post, apparently.
Re:Linus Torvalds Rants by mmjaa on Saturday March 03, 2018 @09:08AM (#16509304)
Interesting. Got a link to an example of where this is happening? Because its a form of irrationality I'm not accustomed to with Linus, and I'd like to see for myself if he might have reasons for behaving this way beyond just stubborn pig-headedness. I know he can be stubborn, but in the case of management of Kernel development, he has very fine reasons... the scope of the kernel is far greater than the scope for some user space software, and so this is indeed an intriguing opportunity to gain some insight into his thought processes.