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Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by mrweasel on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:00AM (#16453781)
The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs.

As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's completely safe to trust others is extremely hard. Likewise when an outsider break that trust Danes become extremely upset and hostile.

We're also becoming increasingly distrusting of other Danes, as people seem to become increasingly self-centred. This was a debate in a radio show a few weeks ago, sadly the reason wasn't discussed, only the danger of losing trust. Trust is hard to build, and our government is increasingly looking towards control and surveillance to ensure safety instead. Stores are moving certain items up to the register, because thieve simply walk out with entire boxes of Nutella or instant coffee.

As a Dane this is extremely disheartening to watch. The feeling that the safe, stable, equal and embracing society, you grew up in, is slowly evaporating isn't a pleasant one.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by paganel on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:38AM (#16453985)
> Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's completely safe to trust others is extremely hard

Am Romanian, reading how the author was robbed on the bus because he had the invalid impression that because it was a Danish bus there would be no thieves in it almost made me start out laughing. One of the first reflexes I developed when I moved to Bucharest as a freshman student almost 20 years ago was to always check my back-pocket for my wallet (and later my front-left pocket for the phone). I still do that gesture up to the present day. I could also tell you how about 10-12 years ago a woman tried to convince me, my ex-wife and my ex-MIL that her son was badly injured in a Bucharest hospital, about to die, and that she needed some money in that very moment, she was crying out in the middle of the street just in front of us. My ex-wife would have given said lady money, but something seemed suspicious to both me and to my ex-MIL and we didn't. We returned to the same area about 15-20 minutes later and said women was still in the same place, this time not crying, calm, waiting for another "victim" to pick.

Not trusting people by default is not bad, it's an evolutionary trait that has helped us as a social species over the millennia. I'm just reading a wonderful book that it's based on not trusting people and which, nevertheless, has had an immense positive influence, I'm talking about the collection of articles called "The Federalist Papers" by Madison, Hamilton and Jay.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by mercer on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:42AM (#16454016)
This is not exactly reassuring.
Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by ggg9990 on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:21AM (#16453891)
The loss of Denmark’s Denmark-ness is a direct consequence of uncontrolled immigration from low-trust countries. The xenophobia is perfectly rational but comes far too late.
Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by bhouston on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:26AM (#16453916)
I believe that the issue isn't high and low trust countries but rather that people in the general case trust others who are like them, because they feel shared interests. I've read some studies that the more multi-cultural a society, especially if there isn't a shared concept of a nation in the immigrants, there is less trust because people do not view their peers across cultural lines as having their own interests. Basically multi-cultural societies in which there isn't integration, shared values, etc. lead to low trust as each group views them as competing with the "different" others.

Even if all the groups came from high trust countries, if combined they do not feel a sense of shared values, patriotism, they will have low trust between these groups.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by KozmoNau7 on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:38AM (#16453986)
The real issue is that we've had succession of more or less right wing governments, with increasingly bad integration policies, leading to ghetto formation and social friction.
Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by mieseratte on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:20AM (#16453889)
So, here's what I don't understand? If it causes societal trouble why let all these troublesome groups in? Does Denmark have some long history as a "nation of immigrants" like the United States does or is this some sort of self-inflicted punishment?
Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by nextos on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:30AM (#16453934)
Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated.

The problem comes from the recent wave and semi-open borders within EU that make it easy for some mafias to move into the country to commit crime. It's a tought problem.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by rsync on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:46AM (#16454045)
"Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated."

I met a group of young, liberal, well-educated Danes on a trip to Japan once and later, accepted their invitation to visit Denmark, where I stayed for about ten days.

Make no mistake - these were picture-perfect Copenhagen Danes with exactly the liberal and progressive bent that you would expect and they were quite well educated and relatively wealthy (one of them even had a car!).

These people did not beat around the bush: they can't stand "the turks", they don't understand why they are there or why they behave the way they do and they cannot believe that their society has been infiltrated in this way.

It wasn't hateful, or even racist per se ... just a very pragmatic rejection of events.

This was in 2004 - I can't imagine they feel any better now.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by RobertoG on Saturday February 24, 2018 @01:02PM (#16454418)
A few months ago I had a similar conversation with a Norwegian guy complaining about the number of immigrants in Norway. The funny thing is that the guy was living in my country.

Of course, in his eyes he was not an immigrant, but an expatriate.

A little of effort trying to understand others can make wonders. Most immigrants behave, a few not. Of those, a few are just bad persons, but most are just poor an uneducated and probably they would prefer to be in their home countries.

If immigrants are so problematic, maybe we should be looking into what, in many cases, our governments are doing (or not doing) in their native countries.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by mrweasel on Saturday February 24, 2018 @12:05PM (#16454131)
As others point out we did have guest works, we also had Vietnamese boat-refugees, Bosnians refugees from the Balkan wars. The thing is: there was never that many of either groups. So no, Denmark isn't a nation of immigrants, not even close.

Both left and right leaning governments have failed to implement good integration policies. The parties on the left have been to naive and assume that things would naturally work them selves out: They trusted that the people coming into the country would want to learn the language, integrate and become Danes. On the right the opposite was assume, that the policies should be to not let people feel welcome, in the hope that they would leave.

Troublesome groups are let in, because Denmark is legally required to. But the evaporation of trust in others isn't purely an immigration issue, it happens between Dane as well, and that's worse because we're not entirely sure why it's happening.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by fxmc on Monday February 26, 2018 @07:15AM (#16464748)
As a German, I'd say that this perfectly describes the situation in Germany as well, including your last paragraph. The erosion of trust among Germans has also started a long time ago, no later than the early nineties.
Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by KozmoNau7 on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:33AM (#16453952)
We have historically been very welcoming of immigrants and "guest workers" (despite some inherent racist attitudes), and a large number of them are so well integrated that we don't even notice anymore.

Unfortunately we've had a series of governments with increasingly bad integration policies, leading to ghettoes and increased friction.

Re:You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes by DanAndersen on Saturday February 24, 2018 @11:35AM (#16453964)
>Trust is hard to build, and our government is increasingly looking towards control and surveillance to ensure safety instead. Stores are moving certain items up to the register, because thieve simply walk out with entire boxes of Nutella or instant coffee.

I'm reminded of "The Evolution of Trust" [0], a fun and interesting online simulation of agent-based cooperation with iterated Prisoner's Dilemmas. Of course no society is perfectly uniformly cooperate/cooperate, but some have an equilibrium that is more in that direction than others. It's a property that can be eroded by the exploitation of group norms you describe, and the system has to adapt by assuming more malice on the part of others.

I wonder if anyone has written deeply on the trend toward externalizing and formalizing implicit/informal trust structures. Of course it's not a new thing (think of Renaissance-era credit systems that were arising that allowed for wide-ranging merchant trade in the absence of face-to-face individual trust), but the rise of the police state, cryptocurrencies, and even the new Amazon Go stores that outsource anti-theft trust to computer vision all seem to be an increasing trend toward assuming that informal trust is impossible in our new environment and that alternate formal systems are necessary.

[0] http://ncase.me/trust/