> The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany.

There are some poor countries like Bulgaria and Romania. Most of Europe is doing just fine. Like you have poor Europe you also have poor US cities and countries and if you compare the poor parts you will find them not all too different.

> If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case.

Even if you have great insurance the knowledge that whatever happens to you, you are fine is an amazing feeling. Also knowing that everybody (with exceptions like people who are there illegally and not entitled to healthcare) having coverage adds to your personal quality of life tremendously.

> The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations

It’s not about how progressive the system is but how much you pay and get for it. In the US you need disposable income to get qualitatively high services and most of those are individual things. Eg: public transit and things like that are hard to get and underfunded.

> Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US.

A grocery store worker in central Europe earning minimum wage or equivalent gets social security, child support, maternity leave of a year, a guaranteed job after returning and a dystem that supports their children and partner. It’s not the money that matters but what you get.

In Austria for instance someone working in a grocery store has a minimum wage of 21000 eur a year minimum, guaranteed increases every year. A 38 euro work week with guaranteed overtime pay, a guaranteed weekend (and at least every secon saturday off), one year of maternity/paternity money and time off, 5 weeks of holiday, two months of notice, unemployment insurance, guaranteed salaries in case of bancruptcy and much more.

For balance: in Ukraine, a population approximately five times larger than Austria - a grocery store worker would be considered lucky to make 4000 EUR per year.

Further - for tens (hundreds?) of millions of people in Europe, in countries such as Hungary, Serbia, Poland, Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Moldova, Russia, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia - even parts of Greece and Italy - earning 21000 EUR per year is an unobtainable dream for working in a grocery store.

The numbers within the EU and EEA are PPP adjusted not that badly off. Ukraine is an extreme example where part of ones salary often bypasses the state and taxation so is Greece which has a dysfunctional government and evonomic slump. With extremes like that you might as well compare it with Detroit or if we don’t stick to the EU might as well compare with Mexico.

Detroit (Michigan State) - average monthly wage 2016, 3,210 EUR per month (source: bls.gov)

EU/EEA countries, selected average monthly wages:

Portugal : 1158 EUR Estonia : 1201 EUR Latvia : 925 EUR Lithuania : 851 EUR Poland : 1102 EUR Czech Republic : 1149 EUR Slovakia : 980 EUR Hungary : 955 EUR Romania : 787 EUR Croatia : 1081 EUR Bulgaria : 586 EUR Greece : 1092 EUR

(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...)

Summary - Detroit/Michigan wages are three to five times higher than all of the above EU/EEA countries.

No figures are PPP adjusted (but clearly there is a very large gap between Detroit/Austrian-grocery-store-wages compared to much of the EU/EEA).

If we don't want to stick to the EU (btw, you originally referred to "Europe"), using the examples proffered so far:

Mexico 664 EUR per month vs Ukraine 264 EUR per month

As I tried to explain above the wages alone do not matter. Detroit is a dysfunctional city with severe lack of basic services. I strongly doubt any EU citizen no matter how disadvantaged would see an improvement by a hypothetical move to Detroit.

Mexico and Ukraine I cannot comment because I know little about it.

20 years of experience in development , 5year degree from computer engineering school, with Mba and PhD. Net 13000 eur per year. Greece

> If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case.

If you get insured.

I think most Europeans are proud to pay taxes to make sure a random fellow living down the street who got cancer can afford his treatments. At least that has been my mentality around taxes for as long as I've lived there.

Sure, taxes don't all go towards nice things :) but at the end of the day I'm proud to be helpful to those who are in need.

Never understood the healthcare system in the US, it just sounds "wrong" to me.

The US has a socialized system of healthcare. It's indirect in the sense that if you can't pay you get covered anyways and the hospital takes a loss.

If you're low income you get Medicaid, if you're old you get Medicare.

People with cancer who get no treatment at all in the US is very rare and usually something else is happening behind the scenes.

This has Many notable exceptions.

Due to the housing meltdown, many people have underwater realty of negative value, yet this asset disqualifies many low cost programs.

The asset limits are very low on Medicaid ($2k individual, $3k couple)

Even medicare is quite low ($7.5k, $11.5k). To qualify, you must effectively divest all your assets and it becomes an insurance bet with the state that you'll die quickly. (@ $7k/month for a nursing home, its not a very good bet)

If you can't pay hospitals and nursing homes kick you out, just happened to a friend. Medicare wouldn't pay for more than two months of care -> on the street.

For most people, the value of selling their house (say $100k, would pay for only 1 year of senior care in the US)

Even better, the care is often lackluster for the cost. (Admittedly at $7k/month I would be expecting marble floors and gold faucets)

Medicare has no income limits. It's available to all over 65, as lots ng as you've paid in.

You are correct. I was mistakenly quoting the Medicare Savings Program. Cannot edit so posting this to reflect.

"If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance."

I am and I'm not. This depends on your employer. Otherwise, one can spend tens of thousands on health insurance to maintain coverage. And it could be terminated by an act of Congress at any time. Worker's compensation is also a thing. Try waiting 8 months to see a doctor for repetitive stress injuries because you've changed states and no one wants to take your case.