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Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by austincheney on Thursday February 22, 2018 @10:51PM (#16444063)
> Most jobs that do require higher education don't actually make any use of the higher education.

This is a serious misunderstanding of what education is or is for. Higher education doesn't exist to provide a skill. That is what trade schools are for. I know this is largely disagreeable for many people on here who learned to program in a university CS program.

Higher education exists to provide the educational background necessary to function in a professional, often corporate, setting. This means things like communications skills, following complex directions, and problem solving. It is a difference between a job of solving for implied tasks versus a job where everything is a directed task and nothing more is expected.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by gilgoomesh on Thursday February 22, 2018 @10:59PM (#16444101)
I know that's what everyone claims but it's an insidious trope that encourages people to trust in a system that lacks measurable benefit. "Don't worry that you'll never use this information. Trust us: we've prepared you in nebulous ways that can't be measured or critiqued."
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by emodendroket on Friday February 23, 2018 @11:03AM (#16447130)
I think what's truly insidious is this idea that anything other than narrow vocational education is useless because you will "never use" it.
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by mulmen on Friday February 23, 2018 @12:09AM (#16444380)
I was continually measured and critiqued in college. It was called grading.
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by randomdata on Friday February 23, 2018 @08:21AM (#16446123)
He is referring to measuring you in your time after college to see how what you gained from the experience has actually shaped your life, and if it matches what was expected from the onset. But given that you don't have a perfect clone that is in every way equal except for having gone to college, it is understandably difficult to measure.

It seems, at best, we have people trying to compare the worlds best prodigies with people who suffer from severe disabilities that prevent them from going to college and conclude that because the prodigies breezed through college that college is the reason for them being more successful people, but that is obviously a horribly flawed methodology.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by emodendroket on Friday February 23, 2018 @11:02AM (#16447121)
The populations of both people who go to college and those who do not are so large that I feel like we could likely control for effects (at least extreme ones like you're talking about) and make useful judgments.
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by randomdata on Friday February 23, 2018 @04:17PM (#16449708)
While I only pointed to the extremes, even across the general population the problem with trying to compare is that college is setup to filter those who are less able. Be that less able to pay, less able to withstand the academic rigour, less able to take risk, less able to integrate in certain social settings, etc. As a result, only the top (for some definition of top) people are able to enter and finish their academic programs.

It's kind of like looking at the Olympics to see how it has shaped the athletic ability of the athletes compared to the ability of the population who have never been to the Olympics. You are bound to find outliers[1], but observing that Olympic athletes are usually stronger athletes might leave you to believe that going to the Olympics makes one a significantly better athlete. However, in reality, those same people would still be among the best athletes even if they never went anywhere near the Olympics.

[1] http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/winter-olympics/...

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by emodendroket on Friday February 23, 2018 @04:58PM (#16449990)
Olympic athletes are a tiny population and there is no program, for instance, to let mediocre athletes in, while there are programs to let economically disadvantaged students into college. I think it should be quite possible to control for those effects.
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by randomdata on Friday February 23, 2018 @05:03PM (#16450023)
> there are programs to let economically disadvantaged students into college.

But, to stick with the comparison, many countries have programs to help out athletes who are economically disadvantaged as well to allow them to make it to the Olympics, assuming they already have demonstrated sufficient athletic ability to justify the funding. Just as sufficient academic ability is required for any college subsidy I have ever come across.

Although I'm not sure ability to pay ends at economic disadvantage. I don't feel that I can pay for college at this point in my life, with many preexisting financial commitments that need to come first, and I have a developer's salary. Nobody is going to pay my way. Not being poor doesn't mean money is readily available for such luxuries. There is a very real opportunity cost there.

What about academically disadvantaged students? Are there any studies to show how people who couldn't possibly graduate from college if they tried to the best of their ability fair by being given access to the entire course load and awarded a degree even with their technical failure? That would be very interesting and a way to start to control the variables.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by austincheney on Friday February 23, 2018 @05:12AM (#16445393)
The benefit is articulation and the ability to create and respond to initiative. The measurable benefit is the strategic success of a person's later career.

Another way to think about it is whether you need to be told explicitly what you do for a job or whether you are given a field of problems to solve for (implied tasks). One of those is far more limited in risk and potential while the other is far more benefited by higher education.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by jjeaff on Thursday February 22, 2018 @11:13PM (#16444164)
>necessary to function in a professional, often corporate, setting. This means things like communications skills, following complex directions, and problem solving

I wonder if just working in a corporate setting and learning these skills as an intern or junior employee might be far more effective.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by tr0ut on Friday February 23, 2018 @10:51AM (#16447035)
I believe so. Besides all the intangibles "Tastes great less filling" etc.. I still believe college/uni prepares you to work. Sorry this is an unpopular belief. Certainly we can debate the original inception and intentions of university all the way back to Greeks pontificating too. I digress..

If it did not. Employment would not require it. Because as most have stated above. It was not about preparing for the workforce. It was for all these other reasons, or the theory of the subject. Why would we want a MS if all they did is meet people and learn how to cook a meal for themselves because they're no longer under their parents thumb?

I would say not too far into ones career. Education matters very little. As in diminishing returns. The best you'll get after attending 'University of X' 5-10 years into your career. Is a high-five because the hiring manager went there too. Not because you're so much better off because you had a class on .Net and Network fundamentals. This is mostly true in all but the very specialized jobs in Tech. For the specialized few that went to top universities.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by emodendroket on Friday February 23, 2018 @11:09AM (#16447167)
> If it did not. Employment would not require it.

That's not so clear. Other theories I've heard include "college is a good proxy for being reasonably intelligent and able to complete a difficult task" (mostly from employers themselves) and the more cynical "college education is a class signifier." I personally would say that college is worthwhile, from a purely work perspective, because it provides the student with the tools to encounter a new problem or concept, learn about it, and teach himself how to solve it, but that there's something to the other two explanations I mentioned too. My Japanese degree taught me nothing about programming, but the experience of learning Japanese in a university was useful when I decided I wanted to learn how to program.

Of course there are exceptions (if you're a doctor your higher education materials were obviously directly relevant), but to me this helps explain why so many employers care about a college degree, and not necessarily a degree in a particular subject.

> Not because you're so much better off because you had a class on .Net and Network fundamentals.

A computer science program that has courses devoted to stuff like .NET frankly doesn't sound like a very good one, since the idea of learning comp-sci is to understand underlying principles rather than memorizing how to use a particular tool.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by tr0ut on Friday February 23, 2018 @11:25AM (#16447280)
I can tell you this. We (the company I work for) would not hire you as a programmer. Without a CS degree. Now I'm assuming you did not go back to get a CS degree. If not you have now ruled yourself out of a lot of opportunities. Ultimately for reasons you mentioned which are anecdotal and intangible.
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by emodendroket on Friday February 23, 2018 @11:38AM (#16447397)
Well, that's all well and good. There are plenty of companies who do not feel that way (even though they almost all put a CS degree as a "requirement" in job listings). In fact, I've never encountered my unrelated degree being an obstacle. I have no idea what you mean about ruling myself out of a lot of opportunities for "anecdotal and intangible" reasons.
Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by tr0ut on Friday February 23, 2018 @12:02PM (#16447567)
I know there is work for people like yourself to be found. Having an unrelated degree but being capable of working in tech. However there are quite a lot of really good companies that will not even give your resume a second look with out CS degree or equal on it. This is what I'm arguing for. I don't think it matters. I've worked with people like yourself and others with no degree or drop-outs. That worked people from top universities under the table. However if we keep perpetuating this nonsense we'll never get an equal opportunity. You'll continue to shut people out who are more than capable.

What I mean is the things you mentioned while I do not dismiss them and I believe you. That being learning an unrelated major helped you with learning something else.. Is not actually enough for tech companies to want to hire you. But because we place so much emphasis on the paper. You're over-looked. So what you feel is a higher-education strength is actually a weakness in the market.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by emodendroket on Friday February 23, 2018 @01:15PM (#16448117)
Well, my argument is a little different than that. I am saying my university education is, in my mind, part of the reason I was able to go from having the notion of learning programming to following through and learning enough to make it my career. I don't think my education makes that much of an impression on my resume after five years of work as a developer except as a curiosity, but if I weren't able to learn in the first place that would be the least of my concerns.

Most of the hard-luck stories I've heard related to degrees were people who'd had decent careers and then weren't able to get a promotion because of a company policy saying managers all needed a bachelors, or something to that effect, where the subject wouldn't really be what's at issue. If I'm really being shut out from interviews because my degree is in the wrong thing I have not noticed the effect -- even at tech companies.

Re:Who's Missing from America's Colleges? Rural High School ... by forapurpose on Thursday February 22, 2018 @11:32PM (#16444252)
> Higher education exists to provide the educational background necessary to function in a professional

To function as a person, a parent, a community member, a citizen, a consumer, a producer ...