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Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by narrator on Thursday February 22, 2018 @07:38PM (#16443062)
The biggest problem with political correctness is the friction between politically correct ideas and actual empirical reality. If there weren't that friction, political correctness wouldn't even be necessary. It would just be called telling the truth. That friction is always there though and constantly generating painful cognitive dissonance that require constant positive pressure in the form of censorship and downvotes to maintain the fiction that reality is being accurately described.

For example, try posting FBI murder rate statistics by race of perpetrator and victim to any forum where political correctness is highly active. Instant downvotes and censorship to maintain ideological hygiene. This is the constant positive pressure that is needed to alleviate the friction between reality and political correctness.

There is a belief that pretending that reality is a way that it is not will make it the way that it is pretended to be. We all experience a very small segment of actual reality, so this actually works for people who are insulated from certain realities that might be ideologically unhygienic.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by another-one-off on Thursday February 22, 2018 @08:07PM (#16443277)
> The biggest problem with political correctness is the friction between politically correct ideas and actual empirical reality.

Maybe. Nobody has enough grey matter to comprehend actual empirical reality even if they had it all laid out for them, and in practice most social maneuvering other people do is unobservable. There is a very strong layer of realpolitik in reality where actors must ensure that their in-group has power, facts be damned.

The real issue is when in-groups don't believe in the growing-the-pie mentality that benefits everyone. A belief that the resources we have are fixed and that only by taking from one group and giving it to another is the single biggest problem. We've seen that belief play out in horrific ways on the left, right, intellectual and populist spectrums and any other axis of thought you care to name. I see danger in the PC crowd, whoever they happen to be, if they believe that one persons wellbeing comes at the expense of another persons speech. That isn't tied to any particular issue; cultures have survived being wrong before.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by rosser on Thursday February 22, 2018 @08:02PM (#16443248)
Isn't it reasonably likely that the people citing, e.g., the FBI's murder statistics by race of perpetrator and victim, are asserting their own sort "ideological hygiene", and hence the down-modding?

That is: aren't some proportion, if not a preponderance of the people citing that operating from a narrative that people of that race are "bad" — ignoring the centuries of social and economic context around the statistic as if it has no bearing on why the statistic is what it is, little details like the disconnect between correlation and causation, &c — and that it's their operating from that narrative, and neither the citation nor the fact, itself, that's being down-modded?

Aren't those people just as — if not more — insulated from "actual reality" than the ones using the forum's moderation mechanisms to "punish" their holding that narrative?

Yes, it's still toxic to discourse, but do you really think discourse is very likely in the first place, when you're dealing with someone who's probably only citing the statistic because it confirms their biases?

EDIT: phrasing

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by kevinh on Thursday February 22, 2018 @07:59PM (#16443229)
> For example, try posting FBI murder rate statistics by race of perpetrator and victim to any forum where political correctness is highly active. Instant downvotes and censorship to maintain ideological hygiene. This is the constant positive pressure that is needed to alleviate the friction between reality and political correctness.

I find it hard to believe that no one has mentioned the factors that make murder rate statistics misleading to you. At the very least, that it's being put out there with the implication that correlation is causation, and ignores other factors that have much more basis for a differing murder rate, like socioeconomic status.

It's probably the set of information that's put out there the most often in order to muddy the waters, often by people have racist motivations.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by rndgermandude on Thursday February 22, 2018 @10:19PM (#16443923)
And you instantly went to assume the intentions of the author and their lack of knowledge, etc?

The author said "posting the data" is enough for backlash, they didn't say anything about judging the data, let alone that they'd judge the data like you say they would.

And even if they would draw "misleading" conclusions from the data, it is not helpful to rant at them and punish them, but rather assume their good faith (until proven otherwise) and explain to them why they were mislead by the data. Even if it's a bad white supremacist who'd never change their mind, you might still positively influence other people reading the same exchange instead of making other people root for the "underdog" (in that conversation) who was viciously and personally attacked just for posting data.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by chickenfries on Friday February 23, 2018 @12:42AM (#16444491)
Yes, because that would be a reasonable explanation for the downvotes.

Most of the time people talk about “black on black crime” they’re not trying to make a sound statistical argument, they’re using it in service of some larger racist point. So yeah, when you start talking about “what about Chicago” or the shape of people’s heads, people tend to put you in the same bucket at everyone else who seems to be really interested in certain facts...

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by UncleMeat on Friday February 23, 2018 @10:10AM (#16446709)
When the last hundred people you've seen post that data do so in order to apply a racist judgement, bayesian reasoning says that this person is likely doing the same and engaging seriously isn't going to go well.
Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by gt_ on Friday February 23, 2018 @12:48AM (#16444512)
This is a poor example for making that point, in the sense that it lacks a moment of realization or revelation. All this example carries is a technicality of yet-to-be-inidentified faith, but not even a hint of justification for considering the contrary. An open mind is something to test and critique but not merely punish or condemn, as this example attempts. A human should be expected to act on probability and defend against risk to the best of their ability and awareness, and it is the point’s failure to sympathize with that which makes it moot.
Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by narrator on Thursday February 22, 2018 @08:43PM (#16443481)
Well how about the friction that occurs when a crackdown on crime is viewed as racist because more people who commit murders are arrested which statistically includes more minorities? The flip side of this is fewer minorities, who are much more likely to be murdered by other minorities, are murdered by those minorities. So the people who benefit the most from these crackdowns are minorities who are victims of crime perpetrated by other minorities. Thus, this policy is actually beneficial to law abiding minorities, though it is viewed as against their interest by politically correct advocates who refuse to acknowledge the actual statistics of crime. They are ideologically obliged to ignore the FBI statistics and to state that a policy that arrests more minorities is thus racist because the arrest rate of all races are not equal. This exact thing actually happened in New York City with the Giuliani administration when they had the big crime crackdown in the 90s.
Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by aaronbrethorst on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:01AM (#16444739)
Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by akkat on Thursday February 22, 2018 @08:59PM (#16443585)
That's the big problem with censorship. If op would post the true statistics that black crime rate is higher than other races then op would be downvoted. op would then go on to think that they are right, and that the political opponents are afraid of having their political bias exposed. If however op was not downvoted for making an innocent observation, but rather was told that the statistic could be used to show a higher correlation between poverty and crime, maybe op, and other readers, would change their mind about the situation.

The problem with this approach is that if op was trolling then they could spit out a huge list of seemingly correct correlations that nobody would have time to debunk all of them. That would allow some of op's bad correlation to be left not debunked and appear that it is right.

In online forms you have to figure out if someone is trolling and then behave in one of two opposite ways based on it they are out aren't.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday February 22, 2018 @10:40PM (#16444023)
> I find it hard to believe that no one has mentioned the factors that make murder rate statistics misleading to you. At the very least, that it's being put out there with the implication that correlation is causation, and ignores other factors that have much more basis for a differing murder rate, like socioeconomic status.

Absolutely socioeconomic and cultural factors affect the statistics. But they also affect statistics like representation in the tech industry.

If someone objects to bringing up one then the same person should object equally strenuously to bringing up the other. Which is not what happens in practice.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by tokai on Thursday February 22, 2018 @09:24PM (#16443690)
>It's probably the set of information that's put out there the most often in order to muddy the waters, often by people have racist motivations.

Lower cognitive ability is related with racism[0]. So it might not be malice, but simple that they cannot grasp the social underpinnings of such statistics.

[0] http://www.fraw.org.uk/library/anarchism/hodson_busseri_2012...

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by tunesmith on Thursday February 22, 2018 @08:00PM (#16443236)
I do think there is a consistent split between the two populations when interactions like that occur.

But I don't think it is as simple as an individual advancing a "reality" that a community is not able to accept.

I think it is easy for the individual to look at it that way, though.

But this is because there's a hidden syllogism lurking about. I could better describe this with a graph, but...

Let's look at the example of mass shootings. Someone could very well bring up historical murder rates (even leaving race out of it), and show that things really are better than they have been in the past, in terms of general trend.

Brought up to people that are alarmed about the prevalence of mass shootings, they'll probably get down-voted or ostracized or whatever.

The individual feels frustrated, because they feel they have disproved some syllogism the community has. The assumed syllogism being, this mass shooting happened, mass shootings mean more death, therefore death rates are increasing. Individual has pointed out that death rates aren't increasing.

But the actual syllogism is the concern about the qualitative nature of the death. That it is saying something about us culturally that is qualitatively different than it used to be. Or simply that someone should be able to go to school without having to worry about that sort of thing culturally.

And the counterpoint that death rates are decreasing over time does nothing to disprove those implied syllogisms. At best the individual's point comes across as irrelevant, at worst it comes across as insensitive, disrespectful, or even pointing towards a worse implied syllogism of the individual's - like that the victims deserved to be killed for not being able to defend themselves with firearms or whatever.

So, next time you post FBI murder rate statistics by race of perpetrator and victim, it's probably best to ask yourself if those stats actually are relevant to the argument that your counterpart is actually stating. It might not be material at all. And it's also good to be explicit about what your point's conclusion is, and what conclusion it disproves.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by s73v3r_ on Thursday February 22, 2018 @07:58PM (#16443219)
I think the question in that situation is, why did you post those stats in the first place? Are they relevant to a discussion? Or did you just want to rile people up?
Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by ignoramceisblis on Thursday February 22, 2018 @10:29PM (#16443964)
This entire discussion is about political correctness and self-censorship. (Maybe reluctantly) Saying things you know are true, despite being against some current political climate, in some way.

But it sounds like you already made your own answer.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by s73v3r_ on Friday February 23, 2018 @11:56AM (#16447523)
But again, what was the intent behind posting those stats? What relevance did they have to the discussion the person was referring to? Cause if, for instance, you're posting them in a discussion about police treatment and responses to black people, then you're just doing it to be an asshole.
Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by ignoramceisblis on Friday February 23, 2018 @02:13PM (#16448559)
To respond to the same question twice:

You clearly imagine he/she gave that example in an effort to "rile people up", or are at least alluding to that as a strong possibility that others should consider. How you can come to that conclusion (out of an infinitude of hypotheticals) from the given information, I do not know.

But to me, it may be a sign that you're looking for things that aren't there. I urge you to consider how in touch with reality you are.

Re:Self-Censorship in Public Discourse: A Theory of 'Politic... by s73v3r_ on Friday February 23, 2018 @03:05PM (#16449028)
Sigh. You didn't add anything to the conversation. And this is the internet. Of course people will post things to rile others up. If you don't think that's a possibility, then I'd have to suggest you're the one out of touch with reality.