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Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by solotronics on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:22AM (#16435569)
Anything where chain of custody is important is a great application in my humble opinion. Currently a huge problem in engineering is guaranteeing the legitimacy of parts. Everything from electronics to commercial jet parts have knockoffs being made and passed off as legitimate. If you have unique QR codes for each part from the manufacturer you can use a blockchain to track chain of custody of the part.

Beyond that you can make something unique digitally and hash it and someone can "own" that digital thing, instead of money it can be items in a game or art or anything really. A musician can make a song for a single person and sign it into a blockchain and you can prove who it was for. Lots of neat applications that haven't been created yet just like the internet when it was new.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by eridius on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:31AM (#16435624)
How is this any better than the manufacturer just maintaining a database of legitimate parts (identified by QR codes) and then contacting the manufacturer when you want to know if a part is legitimate? About the only thing a blockchain would do is insulate you from the manufacturer's API going down. But even that can be solved by having the manufacturer simply send you a copy of the database periodically (and then contacting the manufacturer if your database copy doesn't have the part, in case it's newer than your database, although even that can be solved by having the manufacturer generate the codes in advance, so the database they give you can already contain the codes that will be used for parts manufactured over the next month).

Heck, you don't really even need a database for this at all, come to think of it. Just have the QR code contain a signed copy of the part identifier. You can validate that the signature matches the manufacturer's public key and that will be just as good as asking the manufacturer if it's valid.

Also, now that I think about this, this whole scheme (including using a blockchain) has the fatal flaw wherein a knockoff can just copy the QR code from a valid part. There's nothing stopping anyone from reusing the QR codes, and the knockoff will appear just as legitimate as the original.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by solotronics on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:40AM (#16435664)
With a blockchain the end user could tag the part hash as being installed and you could see exactly who each supplier had the part at what time. A database could go offline and stop a part from begin installed into a jetliner but a blockchain would be always available. The manufacturer could track which parts the end user has in stock and installed and make production decisions easier. A consortium of manufacturers could use the same blockchain for all their parts. I am not claiming it's more efficient for all use cases just that there are some distributed trust applications that seem to make sense.
Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by eridius on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:44AM (#16435691)
The only interesting part here is the behavior when the manufacturer's API goes down, and that's solveable just by having the clients maintain a queue of their failed modifications and retry them later when the API goes back up again. And of course the manufacturer can even provide the software that does this to the client so the client doesn't have to do any work for it.
Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by twic on Thursday February 22, 2018 @02:59AM (#16436005)
This little subthread is a great example of a kind of fallacy that seems endemic amongst blockchain believers. "A blockchain solution X can solve problem P, therefore blockchain is useful". Without asking if there is a non-blockchain solution Y that can also solve P, and if so, what the relative merits of X and Y are.

Given that a blockchain is just a distributed database with a distributed certification mechanism, you can generally immediately construct a couple of non-blockchain solutions by first removing distributed certification, then distribution of the database itself. You can then quickly see the eigenmerits of those kinds of distribution for the problem at hand. I have yet to see an example where they are positive.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by langitbiru on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:13AM (#16436312)
The blockchain solution can gives more benefits more than "when the manufacturer's API goes down".

So there are 3 actors in supply chain: manufacturers, retailers, and consumers. In your solution (centralized database and API), you rely on the goodwill of the manufacturers which is fine (I guess) in most cases. But retailers and consumers have good reason sometimes not to trust the manufacturers. Vice versa.

Okay, let's consider this case: the manufacturer produces milk packaged in a bottle. So they put QR code in the milk, and put some information in their database. Let's say they put the production date into this database.

QR code: Abbbccc Information: produced on January 5th 2018

They send the milk to the warehouse A. Warehouse A keeps the milk for a night before sending to the retailers. But alas, there is a storm preventing the warehouse sending the milk to the retailers. So 1 week later, it delivers the milk to the retailers. Warehouse A informs the manufacturer about the incident. But let's say this milk only has 10 days before it hits expiry date after the production. Manufacturer decides to lie to the retailers. They updates the database.

QR code: Abbbccc Information: produced on January 11th 2018

In blockchain, this corruption can be prevented.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by icebraining on Thursday February 22, 2018 @06:38AM (#16436881)
The blockchain is not what prevented that; the manufacturer publicly publishing that information is what prevented that. The fact that they did so to a blockchain is irrelevant.

Say the manufacturer instead just has an RSS feed on their site, where they publish that information (digitally signed, of course) as the milk is produced. The retailers just have to keep a local copy of that feed, and so they can detect any later tampering.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by eridius on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:44PM (#16440138)
And if you really love the blockchain, you can always run your own blockchain that simply records snapshots of the manufacturer's RSS feed!

</sarcasm>

That said, this does bring to mind one genuinely useful aspect to the blockchain I forgot about, and that's the fact that Keybase uses the bitcoin blockchain (IIRC) to periodically record the Merkle tree roots that they use to verify their own information. The only reason to do this is as proof that they're not tampering with the Keybase history that they publish, and so fundamentally this is just the same thing as digital notarizing that I did mention before (except in this case it doesn't matter whether the courts recognize it as being valid). And you could still accomplish this without a blockchain simply by having a neutral third party agree to keep a record of the merkle tree roots, but this is one of the few cases where the 'trustless' aspect of the blockchain actually is useful.

Though of course even with a 'trustless' blockchain you still have to trust the chain itself. With Bitcoin, you can assume nobody's managed to execute a 51% attack against the chain (at least, for the time being; AIUI with the way things are going it looks like the Chinese government might be able to do it by exerting pressure on all the Chinese miners), but if you're running your own chain, how do you make mining the chain popular enough to prevent attacks?

In fact, to my mind, the only real benefit of Bitcoin at this point is the fact that it's so popular it's hard to attack (well, except by the Chinese government).

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by icebraining on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:16PM (#16441456)
Yeah, as long as the cryptocurrency speculators are paying for it, getting a public timestamping service for almost free is nice.

I'm not actually a Bitcoin/blockchain hater; I can't avoid having a soft spot for any tech that makes me feel like I'm living in a cyberpunk world :) What I dislike is the mania. Bitcoin is a cool experiment, not a production-ready solution to anything.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by vsssk on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:03AM (#16436278)
Wait, so, if I used blockchain I wouldn't have to

maintain a queue of.. failed modifications and retry them later when the API goes back up again.

neither would I have to

provide the software that does this to the client so the client doesn't have to do any work for it.

You're literally describing a benefit of blockchain. Its right under your nose.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by icebraining on Thursday February 22, 2018 @06:52AM (#16436932)
maintain a queue of.. failed modifications and retry them later when the API goes back up again.

Your blockchain client still has to have a queue of transactions to be submitted, as the Internet is not magically reliable.

You're literally describing a benefit of blockchain. Its right under your nose.

It is a benefit of the blockchain, in the same way that transporting people is a benefit of a dump truck. That doesn't mean it's appropriate for that job.

There are many, many tools for storing and pushing messages to remote servers. The blockchain clients can do it, but it's absurd to use them unless you need the rest of the blockchain stuff. Even an email server (MTA) would be a better option.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by qeternity on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:30AM (#16435620)
A centralized database run by the manufacturer would accomplish the same thing. The number of trustless use cases, where blockchain really shines, is just not that large. Decentralization has a huge cost and most of the time it’s not worth the overhead.
Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by _trampeltier on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:58AM (#16435747)
In a centralized database it is allways possible to cheat. I think something like qualitiy data from a factory. Once you stored the data, there will be no way to change it later.
Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by zaarn on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:06AM (#16436287)
Why would a vendor cheat in a database that contains only a list of legitimate parts from the vendor? It is in their interest to sell those parts and not have any knock-offs sold.

The same goes for quality data, mostly because even if the vendor provides it, basically any industry partner will absolutely insist on doing sample tests on the quality anyway. That also doesn't remove the factor where the quality results are cheated before being put on the blockchain.

A blockchain is not very useful when

A) all participants are trusted or

B) there is no incentive to cheat or

C) if there is incentive to cheat there are already countermeasures available that are more useful (ie, doing samples and having a contract that specifies damage payments in case quality does not match)

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by village-idiot on Thursday February 22, 2018 @08:18AM (#16437322)
Since you have to, at some point, trust the manufacturer that they built what they said they built, there is no point in a "trustless" system.

Second, you have yet to actually provide any motivation for end clients to spend money or hardware on a manufacturer's blockchain. Chances are the manufacturer would have to maintain all the miners, which is silly.

Third, the manufacturer in this case would have all of the signing keys, since they're the only ones that can make parts. This also damages the selling point of the blockchain.

So no, this does not work.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by qeternity on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:25AM (#16436363)
As noted by other commenters, in most of the immutable data use cases that I have seen, these ignore the much greater business and operational risk placed in your counter-party. For instance, I place far more trust in an airline to get me from A to B alive and safe than I do for them to honor the fact that they issued me a ticket. We've already established a much higher level of trust based on profit (i.e. dangerous airlines lose customers) and thus a blockchain doesn't really add anything.
Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by iamben on Thursday February 22, 2018 @04:08AM (#16436294)
I think the point the earlier posters are trying to make is that if a manufacturer is at a point where they need an immutable, decentralised quality record their problems are bigger than the record keeping. As someone buying parts you generally want to trust the manufacturer you're buying from, as someone making them, if you're at the point of making crap and faking records your days are probably numbered anyway.

If you somehow managed to persuade an industry to get on board, for the most part, those with nothing to hide are the ones a decentralised quality database is the least useful for - anyone trying to hide anything (manufacturer / buyer) is going to avoid taking part or cut corners anyway.

Re:You Probably Don't Need a Blockchain by dcow on Thursday February 22, 2018 @01:38AM (#16435657)
Which of those examples needs to be distributed?