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Re:An update on JavaOne by wicknicks on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:29PM (#1639656)
This is really not nice for Open Source. I can understand that Oracle wants to make money, but they are really creating big barriers for corporations using Java. The lawsuit is marking the start of Java's decline. Its a matter of time before something replaces it.
Re:An update on JavaOne by swannodette on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:39PM (#1639708)
While I see the Google vs. Oracle Java struggle getting ugly, I don't think this marks the decline of Java at all. Most corporations invested in Java are not building their own version of Java- do they really care how this goes down? In addition what language is in any position to replace Java?
Re:An update on JavaOne by someone_here on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:42PM (#1639726)
what language is in any position to replace Java?

Previously, it was any new implementation of the VM...

Re:An update on JavaOne by swannodette on Friday August 27, 2010 @03:03PM (#1639814)
Sadly a virtual machine by itself just isn't good enough anymore. The maturity and performance of the JVM shows. That kind of infrastructures takes oh ... about 20 years to build.

Until the current crop of JVM based languages showed up my interest in the Java the language waned. But now that you can use your language of choice and still tap into JVM libraries, perf and the high quality profiling tools, the JVM is compelling again.

Also experience stories like this, http://blog.urbanairship.com/blog/tag/java/, show that as great as Python and Ruby are for building websites, surprise, surprise, they don't have the performance for the real-time web.

Re:An update on JavaOne by amix on Friday August 27, 2010 @07:58PM (#1640726)
Java isn't really that good fit for real-time web applications as it usually eats a lot memory - especially if you compare it to C/C++ or node.js (V8).

A while ago I rewrote a system from Java (that used JBoss Netty) to node.js. The node.js solution used about 10x less memory. And memory is a crucial element of scaling real-time web applications.

Re:An update on JavaOne by swannodette on Friday August 27, 2010 @08:23PM (#1640778)
What you mean is that your real-time application was largely memory bound - other apps might require that sanely and rapidly coordinating access to shared state might be more critical than the cost of memory- with a collaborative whiteboard or the backend of a MMORPG you're probably going to run into difficulties with C/C++ and Node.js might very well be useless. There are domains where shared nothing just doesn't work.
Re:An update on JavaOne by wicknicks on Friday August 27, 2010 @05:11PM (#1640293)
Maybe there is no language which will immediately replace Java, but as noodle pointed out, its going to stagnate. Like what happened to C. C is being used in many companies, because they have so much stuff already written in it and cannot afford a re-write. But the community will slowly shift to other languages. We can already see that in terms of Scala/Clojure - both very promising languages.
Re:An update on JavaOne by strlen on Friday August 27, 2010 @06:08PM (#1640452)
Scala and Clojure run on the JVM. There's very little to Java as far as syntax goes, it's basically C++ without MI, operator overloading or real templates. The real value is in the runtime: the standard library, the concurrency model, the virtual machine. That part is threatened by the litigation as well.

Building your own competing JVM can, as this suit demonstrated, get you sued too.

Re:An update on JavaOne by KeithMajhor on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:44PM (#1639730)
Is Microsoft's runtime any more open? I've been more and more impressed with Mono lately. Does it potentially face the same issues Java is facing now?
Re:An update on JavaOne by postfuturist on Friday August 27, 2010 @03:08PM (#1639835)
Some of the patents that Oracle is suing Google over are pretty general and would apply to either Mono or Microsoft's own .NET runtime as well as many other similar pieces of code in the wild. As long as software patents are taken seriously, any large blob of code is facing similar "issues".
Re:An update on JavaOne by icey on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:49PM (#1639750)
This may answer some of your questions:

http://www.mono-project.com/MonoConcerns

Re:An update on JavaOne by sprout on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:50PM (#1639754)
Actually, it faces even bigger issues, since you essentially have to be using a version of Mono that is paid for. Java at least has a solid grant of patents so long as you're using the GPL version.

Microsoft has intentionally worded their licenses to allow them to sue anyone who isn't paying for their software in the future.

In a certain sense, this is the intent of the GPL rearing its ugly head. When Oracle says Android violates their copyright, it seems like what they mean is they've taken GPL code (the Java standard) and re-implemented it under a different license. Though I'm in no way deep in enough to say that authoritatively, and like the entire suit the rationale seems questionable to say the least.

A potential Microsoft suit looks to be allowed by the Mono licensing.

Re:An update on JavaOne by viraptor on Friday August 27, 2010 @03:17PM (#1639872)
I'm not sure what you're referring to in a couple of places:

> since you essentially have to be using a version of Mono that is paid for

What do you mean? The MS-Novel patent deal was done long time ago. Now, there is a better document in place: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx - both C# and CLI are covered and no implementation is pointed at. It stops them from suing for "making, using, selling, offering for sale, importing or distributing any implementation" - as long as it's compliant with specs. Stress is on "any implementation" here. That document doesn't mention any specific party and doesn't limit the promise to any specific group as far as I can see.

> Microsoft has intentionally worded their licenses to allow them to sue anyone who isn't paying for their software in the future.

[citation needed]

Re:An update on JavaOne by sprout on Sunday August 29, 2010 @10:06PM (#1645167)
Okay, I think I was confusing Mono with Moonlight, which as I see it is not covered by that document. (And Silverlight is an increasingly important piece of the .NET pie.)

Also, given Microsoft's business model and track record, it seems unlikely that .NET is going to hit a steady stable state any time soon, unlike Java which may be stuck at 6 indefinitely. The consequence of this is that Microsoft can break everything, including their promises, anytime they want by bumping the version number and removing the license for the new version. Would it be a good business decision for them? Probably not. But I think this move from Oracle shows that it is a very real possibility, if Microsoft decides they should be taking cues from Oracle (which given Oracle's track record makes a lot of sense, even if this move seems bonkers.)

Re:An update on JavaOne by noodle on Friday August 27, 2010 @02:41PM (#1639720)
> Its a matter of time before something replaces it.

replaces it for new development, perhaps. java itself will probably never go away now, though, lawsuit or not. its footprint is just too huge now. at worst, it'll just stagnate.

Re:An update on JavaOne by protomyth on Friday August 27, 2010 @03:04PM (#1639818)
What's the barrier? Oracle has business relationships with most companies using Java and this does not affect OpenJDK, IBM, or any other licensee.