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Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by ghaff on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:43AM (#16393582)
It's not hard to imagine that, at some point, the sensible business strategy for certain types of US companies may be to simply not operate in the EU or certain other countries. That's not commentary on the rightness or wrongness of EU regulation but simply that, at some point,it may just not be worth operating in some geographies. GDPR is one example but so is right to be forgotten, etc.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by jonwachob91 on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:49AM (#16393626)
Competitors would pop up willing to abide by the local laws, and they'll make quiet a bit of money doing it.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by peoplewindow on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:07PM (#16396279)
This came up a few days ago as well.

You can't just abide by these laws because it's so unclear what they mean and say. Notice how the findings are always that a firm didn't do "enough". What is enough? Where in law does it say what enough is?

The EU can chase American firms out of the EU. All it means is people will use the American websites without them having any corporate HQs in Europe, or simply be locked out entirely. The local competitors will probably suck - judging from the past attempts to compete.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by rmc on Saturday February 17, 2018 @10:22AM (#16401049)
And the competitor will be able to operate in the USA, whereas FB won't be operating in EU, giving the compeditor an advantage.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:33PM (#16395850)
Maybe for large companies serving large-scale needs. But tiny companies w/ not-that-popular services might not have a version in that region (simply not worth the risk) and the citizens lose out. IIRC, there is not a way for a citizen to say "I understand what these companies do and choose to accept it"
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by stefano on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:50PM (#16396065)
I'll be pretty happy to "lose out" from being tracked and profiled.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:00PM (#16396867)
Right, you speak for yourself (and probably the overwhelming majority). That is my point.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by abritinthebay on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:53PM (#16397292)
How do citizens lose out from "don't be tracked"?
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:25PM (#16397520)
See GP's comment. The lose out on companies that have now chosen not to operate there. Like small companies that don't want to risk being fined €20 million. It's not that they are companies that track you, it's that for many smaller/early companies that don't need EU customers yet, why even risk a mistake? And why risk the amount of that mistake on non-codified promises and subjective enforcement levels (i.e. "we promise only to use that number on the big players)?

If I were a VC, I'd tell my companies that didn't need EU customers yet not to sell to them until they are large enough to make sure they won't fall afoul of rules. Regulations almost always benefit the larger companies, even if they are well-intended. Smaller, more nimble companies almost always thrive in more open environments. Citizens of more open and less restriction/regulation encumbered environments often get a larger variety of businesses to use (sometimes to a fault, like tracking).

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by rmc on Saturday February 17, 2018 @10:24AM (#16401057)
It's the "yet" that'll kill them. With the focus on growth, a VC backed company will not be able to ignore the massive EU market forever. Can it pivot, quickly, to be respecting of privacy? If you've build your whole business on collecting and using personal data, how can you change?
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Saturday February 17, 2018 @02:07PM (#16402140)
You're missing my point. They haven't built their business collecting data. They were just mitigating risk. I am not talking about businesses collecting personal data. Just a normal company that doesn't want to worry about compliance in the early days (even though they are probably compliant). I specifically said "It's not that they are companies that track you".

When ready, they will be able to enter the EU market quite easily, but at least with capital and size they can do the work necessary to feel comfortable in their compliance. Until then, EU citizens don't get access to the company. This is what I mean about regulations favoring the larger companies. It's almost always the case.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by rmc on Sunday February 18, 2018 @04:14AM (#16405150)
Can Facebook operate if they don't track people to the degree they are doing now? Can they offer good adverts? Can Google?
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by abritinthebay on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:06PM (#16397834)
Again - what are citizens possibly losing if the company Connor do business without tracking and selling their data? Because that sounds like it’s not those citizens losing - it’s US citizens losing.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:08PM (#16398169)
Again - because they aren't tracking and selling their data, they are just managing risk. When doing business, it's not a blind "well, we're doing nothing wrong, we have nothing to worry about", it's "we're doing nothing wrong, but a mistake can bankrupt us in this market that is not required for us to sustain growth." Nobody wants to trust even-handedness application by regulators when it's just a ridiculously high penalty ceiling...well, nobody except those large companies that can absorb it. Citizens lose because they don't get to use products by otherwise well-intentioned companies that are scared of penalties because they are so high and subjectively enforced.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by Azzy on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:08PM (#16398453)
If I'm following your hypothetical situation correctly, you're claiming that an international company would rather not do business than to email the privacy commission for feedback? Which is standard procedure when in doubt...
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:37PM (#16398569)
It's not about doubt of the rules. Though there is extreme subjectivity, that's not my point in these posts. It's about risk mitigation (i.e. the extreme size of the penalties coupled with potential subjective enforcement). I'm not claiming anything about an international company, I am talking about small startups that might not even go completely international at first. Why, if I have all the customers I can handle right now as I grow would I subject myself to more regulations for no reason?

It's not that hypothetical as I've been in this with young companies where we were deciding where to launch first (for beta or actual launches). Granted there was nothing then precluding EU users in those times, in fact we preferred it to help w/ i18n vetting. Nowadays, I'd just as soon leave EU countries off of the select box on my signup form, and not worry about GPDR compliance (again, even though I am probably compliant and believe in the spirit of the rules).

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by vsl on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:44AM (#16405796)
Exactly. To a large extent, I - a citizen of an EU country - can already see the effect. Just look at how many electronics companies don’t sell in EU. There’s a Swiss company making great routers that outright says it’s because of RoHS.

And as of the earlier arguments like “no loss” or “competition would step up” - look how few EU tech companies there are. There’s a reason for that.

The armchair commenters here aren’t EU business people, and it shows. Around here, GPDR is considered a disaster, in the usual style of EU’s heavy-handed, poorly thought-out regulations. It adds so much bureaucracy and expenses - even for companies that do nothing shady - that it is absurd.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by barrkel on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:47AM (#16393609)
Half a billion people, biggest market in the world - it's not easy to tell your shareholders you're going to ignore it.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by ghaff on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:01PM (#16393726)
Lots of US companies are primarily domestic. If, for whatever reason--conflicting regulation, existing competitors, different consumer preferences, etc.--it doesn't make sense to expand internationally there's nothing saying that a given company needs to be global. If your strategy from the beginning is to remain focused on a specific market, I don't see an issue with that.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by jonwachob91 on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:09PM (#16393799)
Examples?

The only domestic only companies I can think of aren't competitive in an international market, hence being domestic only.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by adventured on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:53PM (#16394795)
The US is the least dependent major economy on the planet, when it comes to foreign trade. The vast majority of all US companies operate with between zero and minimal exports. The US is a highly self-contained economy (it should be obvious that's not the same as entirely self-contained), few other nations come even remotely close to being comparable.

https://i.imgur.com/QZyjKdZ.jpg

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by Slansitartop on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:09PM (#16396926)
I totally agree with you that the US is very self contained compared to many countries, though I wonder if that would also be true of the EU as a bloc. The graph you posted treats the US as one unit but each EU country as a separate unit. I think it EU/US or EU country/US state would be more comparable.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by wtfstatists on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:35PM (#16395876)
it's not easy to tell your shareholders you're going to ignore it.

It can be if there is too much risk or uncertainity. It can be even easier if there is anti-business characteristics to the policies.

I would say EU classify as such.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by mrguyorama on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:56PM (#16396134)
If supporting the privacy rights of your citizens is considered "anti-business", then maybe businesses need a rethink
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by kodablah on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:39PM (#16397624)
You can phrase it any way you want, like "If adding regulations with potential fines even on mistakes to bankrupt a company, then maybe regulators need a rethink". Why is everyone so focused on what the intention of the rules are and not the practicalities? Often I feel these regulations are throwing spaghetti against a wall praying it sticks (e.g. cookie law). Because there's a problem, so the government must solve it. People can't be asked to self-regulate and governments can't be asked to encourage alternatives. It should be after those alternatives fail that the law is used as a last resort, and even then, marginally until the impacts are understood.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by vsl on Sunday February 18, 2018 @07:50AM (#16405831)
You need to read up on GDPR and what it really means.

You’re probably as annoyed by those ever-present cookie banners everywhere. That’s a direct result of another poorly thought-out EU regulation with good privacy intentions behind it. EU is not an indisputable force for good as you seem to think.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by hueving on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:06PM (#16393771)
Of course it would be easy if operating in the market provided an existential risk to the company.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by stock_toaster on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:12PM (#16395004)
> biggest market in the world

How so? What about China and India?

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by jacquesm on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:19PM (#16395094)
Not in number of people.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by matt4077 on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:15PM (#16393854)
Of course this is “commentary on the rightness or wrongness”: it’s the same old “I’m taking my toys and going home” we’ve been reading in the comments for every single story on EU regulation for decades. I remember people making it for Microsoft’s European antitrust troubles in the 90s.

The fact that no company ever did such a thing should be a clue as to the wisdom of a strategy based on one’s fragile nationalistic ego.

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by ghaff on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:44PM (#16394122)
Companies exit geos (or never enter them) all the time. [1] No, it's not usually just about some law. But it may well have to do with nature of the market, regulatory climate, need to work through partners, cost of labor, work rules, etc. It's nothing to do with nationalist egos and everything to do with "it's just business" to avoid markets that aren't profitable or introduce too much business risk.

I really couldn't care less if there's some demand for my product/service in some market if it doesn't make business sense for me to sell there.

[1] For a random list. http://fortune.com/2015/01/16/international-retail-exits/

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by carry_bit on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:44PM (#16394114)
We could see the (continued) decline of the global internet. China is already its own bubble; it's not implausible that it could spread to other regions due to conflicting interests.

If we continue down that path, will there be the equivalent of free tree agreements to limit the fragmentation?

Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by fimdomeio on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:38PM (#16394652)
Facebook is by definition breaking the Internet by having created a walled garden. If we continue down this path maybe at some point companies will start relying on open protocols to allow it's users to communicated with other outside the bubble.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by Feniks on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:52PM (#16396780)
We'll survive I'm sure. I see the US not as example but as a warning.
Re:Facebook ordered to delete illegally collected data by Be... by solomatov on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:15PM (#16396963)
I am sure that US will have their counterpart to GDPR at some point. US has HIPAA and FERPA which protect privacy in healthcare education very well.