While i do agree with the progress Linus has made, Linux in most organisations is still problematic in these areas. But i am not sure illumos is better. I think it would but...
Why? Usability and operational cost. You can get containers and ZFS and eBPF... but you need really recent version of the kernel, which are not supported in most distros (there is still a huge amount of machines out there stuck on 2.X line). And they have a really big cost of entry.
Containers are still really hard to use reliably, epoll is still a mess, eBPF still has no high level frontend or books on using it, and ZFS is far from "turn key" ready on Linux.
Can you do it? Yes. But it means your infra team will pay a high cost and there are no real vendor to help. Is it getting better? Alledgedly for some things like eBPF yes.
But for ZFS, no hope until license change. And for containers, i stopped believing we can have zn easy to use, secure by default container system on Linux. Hell Docker kernel panic the host far too much.
So i do think there is a place for something like illumos... but lot of work still to be done.
PS : also virtual networking. We need a real thing here. This is already making some company come back from containers.
You get a system that has been developed and thoroughly tested as a single cohesive whole. It has advanced features that you know work well out of the box, which require a lot of fiddling and custom hackery to replicate reliably on Linux. Anyone who has tried to get LXC working well on Linux will instantly appreciate the ease of firing up a zone in SmartOS; all that crap you fought for hours to make work on LXC works automatically, it works well, and it doesn't hide its guts from you.
I appreciate how the system coheres and operates together in a sensible, straightforward manner, that I trust to work without crashing or getting in my face or breaking between incremental updates.
You can't say that about Linux containerization. You install Docker and then overlayfs is a broken piece of crap. You update your overlay driver, and it's still a broken piece of crap. You try to work and hack around it, and you eventually find something that mostly-works, but it's disgusting and terrible, like having to do eight different commands as a single RUN line with continuations (just had to do this today; saved 200MB on my Docker image).
illumos looks like a potential modern refuge from this, where I can still run Linux containers thanks to LX zones, and where I can still keep the monkeys happy by giving them a Kubernetes and they're none-the-wiser that it's running on something that isn't going to be crapping itself every time I blink.
Crossbow is impressive, as you say. There are a lot of gems and features that are only half-implemented on Linux and a total nightmare to get working, that work out of the box on illumos. At least on paper.
I have a SmartOS VM that I'm playing with. Tried to grab an image from Docker Hub. imgadm doesn't support Docker v2 images. There's a pull request that's been open since September with the changes and no information about it in Gerrit. Tried to poke the Joyent employees who participated in this PR for an update and up to this point, radio silence. Not a very inspiring start.
It would've been a godsend to confidently and quickly be able to pull images from Docker repos and deploy them on SmartOS. Seems, however, that they want this to be hard if you don't use Triton, because they want you to buy Triton (yes, I know this is open-source; the setup demands at least a couple of machines, the "cloud on a laptop" is a VMWare image that spawns multiple components (a la minikube) and I don't want to try to run one of those right now, and I want it to work on plain SmartOS!).
Lots of promise, but sadly, not certain that it's firm footing right now.
Since the options for illumos employment are and were scant, the story that you were looking for a change of scenery and it just-so-happened to entail Linux is somewhat believable. I appreciate you clearing up the record on that; it seems like now it's clear that you left over doubts and uncertainties about the value of illumos itself.
The real key question is why, as Linux caught up to these features that you've listed, illumos wasn't pushing the envelope even farther, adding more features that you could continue to get excited about and continue to evangelize.
I think that's the key missing piece for me. It seems like that loss of faith had to be pretty momentous if you were willing to shift attention to Linux and spend years helping to develop eBPF, replicating the core featureset that already existed via DTrace.
So I'm trying to understand how to interpret that, and whether your departure + the departure of other key ex-Sun personnel around the same time should be taken as a clear vote of no confidence in illumos and/or other Solaris-derived products (potentially precipitated by a company-internal event that demonstrated this obviously, but which the rest of us don't know about), or whether that's too much to read into it based on associated personal factors.
This is important to me as a potential platform adherent because as awesome as Bryan seems, illumos is a harder sell when he's standing alone as one of its sole prominent proponents, whereas everyone else who was involved with OpenSolaris back in the day has accepted the reality of Linux dominance and moved on.
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EDIT: Hope we don't end up talking past each other in edits, but yeah, the thing that's been hard for me piecing this together is that it doesn't seem like there's any closure. Seemed like in a short period of time, you went from touting illumos frequently to never mentioning it unless it was to tell people that you don't think they should use it anymore. I'm trying to bridge that gap from the breadcrumbs left online, but thus far, coming up without satisfactory answers. There is still a tension here that I haven't been able to resolve.
With the post from last year, you talk about things like it's a forgone conclusion that Solaris and its derivatives are over and done. This makes your position sharper but it doesn't really help with a context or pathway for why that conclusion is so crisp when illumos and Joyent are still apparently viable.
I understand that the tone is conciliatory because you're trying to cheer up the Sun folks who got caught up in the layoff, and show them that there is light on the Linux side of things. But no mention of illumos at all? No "Hey, Bryan has some openings over there if you're still into the Solaris thing, I used to work for him and it was alright, he'll give me 500 smackers if he hires someone and you say you read about it on this blog"? A little weird.
You even do this in the parent comment here, where you describe time spent discussing illumos/Solaris as "down the Solaris drain", i.e., anything Solaris is non-productive. Why is it now "the Solaris drain"? Bryan and Joyent are trying to convince me that it's not a drain.
I know that Linux "caught up", but that doesn't feel like the only explanation here. There's something else. After all, you still speak highly of FreeBSD, which also lags Linux in several significant ways.
If it's just personal, I'm not asking you to get into the details and spread gossip, etc., but would be great to hear from you that "I just personally lost interest in that", "it was just about better employability on the Linux side, Solaris is still cool if that floats your boat, just doesn't float mine anymore", etc. instead of just hearing generic hand-wavy stuff from Bryan, who can't give the real deal as long as he wants to keep his job.
It just feels like there something else here that's not out. I want to know what it is before I start running production applications on these platforms!
So let me make this slightly blunter: our goal in SmartOS and illumos is to solve systems problems -- and yes, we do it with the courage to go our own way where we see fit. If that worldview is a match for you, that's awesome. If that's not a match for you, that's fine too -- world domination is not, in fact, our goal. Yes, we are a small community, but that's fine with us: this is all open source; it's not going away.
As an aside, I personally don't understand why anyone would choose to spend their time denigrating small communities; if you want to write your software in (say) OCaml and deploy it on OpenBSD via a Nix derivative, why should anyone spend their time telling you that you are wasting yours? (These are three examples of communities that -- like SmartOS -- are small but technically interesting.)
And more importantly: why should you (or anyone, really) listen to a person who has defined themselves so negatively and so rigidly? Your technology choices -- like the books you like or the movies you enjoy or the ideas you have -- are your business; don't let anyone browbeat your choices out of you simply because they don't match their own.
My concern, as it relates to this thread, is around the spectacular loss of faith that Brendan has exhibited. You don't go from being a world-recognized authority on DTrace like Brendan to a Linux refugee overnight, especially not 3 years ago when you have to lay out all the plumbing for eBPF yourself.
So something happened. That's clear. I want to know what it is, at least proximally / vaguely, because if it can drive Brendan away from illumos, I assume it can also drive away those of us who are less involved.
If it was simply a personal dispute and had nothing to do with technical direction, that, of course, is one thing that doesn't reflect badly on illumos at all. People burn out sometimes, they want a change of scenery, whatever. But Brendan appears to stringently believe that illumos is now a bad choice in virtually all circumstances. It feels like there's something substantial at play. I don't think he's petty enough to bash the illumos kernel just because he had a spat or wanted to mix things up, especially considering it contains a not-insignificant portion of his own work.
I don't necessarily expect either of you to reveal details, and obviously, I respect that you have both moral and legal obligations as it relates to confidentiality surrounding personnel matters. I'm just talking about my read on the situation, and why I'm skittish, despite what I feel are some strong positives in SmartOS's favor. A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking. I'm sure you can understand an outsider's perspective on that.
It'd be cool if you could discuss some of the performance ground that illumos has covered since 2014, as Brendan gave a pretty thorough list of ground that Linux has covered. His tone always seems to be "Solaris is a sad situation, but look guys, there's light at the end of the tunnel." He gives absolutely no intimation that illumos is a viable alternative, though he will entertain FreeBSD. Always phrases it like everyone knows Solaris and its derivatives are fully dead, and he alternates between appearing relieved about it and appearing disappointed about it (I'm sure it's both).
I just want to know why he rules it out so strictly. It's weird, it doesn't add up. Missing variables. I don't think this attitude is sufficiently justified by "Linux caught up, that's all". When stuff is weird, I approach it cautiously, especially since my goal with SmartOS is something simple, stable, and powerful, no fuss. Weird things are fuss.
I don't see where you are getting this idea. There are many contributors to Illumos from all over the globe. https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/graphs/contributors . Bryan stated in a previous post that Joyent now employs more former Sun engineers than it ever has.
> If it was simply a personal dispute and had nothing to do with technical direction
From the outside looking in when Brendan left, reading both the mailing lists and Twitter, this is exactly what it seemed like.
Bryan Catrill will never be alone for as long as I draw breath: I will single handedly continue working on illumos and SmartOS even if everybody else quits doing that. I have already made up my mind after a lengthy private exchange with Brendan Gregg a while ago.
FYI.
I no longer believe in illumos. It made a lot of sense in 2010 when competing with Linux, a lot less by 2014, and very little today.
When we created illumos in August 2010, the latest Linux version was 2.6.35. The cutting-edge latest. Most people were still running older versions, 2.6.32, 2.6.27, etc. Linux had many performance issues at the time: it still had the Big Kernel Lock (BKL), performance issues with mutexes, IPC, ext4, XFS, dcache, VFS, slub, and other subsystems, no transparent huge pages, no NUMA balancing, no inbound or outbound network fanout, and before many TCP improvements: increasing the initial window size, early retransmit, fast open, tail loss probe, autocorking, anti-bufferbloat, and so on. Linux was slow. I worked on Solaris performance, and beating Linux was something I'd expect to do nine times out of ten.
illumos, based on OpenSolaris, seemed like a great idea. You get a faster, more scalable kernel, and you get three great features: ZFS, DTrace, and Zones. At one point we had "ZFS, DTrace, Zones" printed in big letters on T-shirts. I evangelized illumos. I believed in it.
However, all of those Linux performance issues were fixed in the years that followed. With the changed kernel version: BKL (2.6.37), mutexes (2.6.36, 3.10), IPC (2.6.33, 2.6.35), ext4 (2.6.37+), XFS (2.6.37+), dcache (2.6.38), VFS (3.1), slub (3.1), transparent huge pages (2.6.38), NUMA balancing (3.8), inbound fanout (RPS, 2.6.35), outbound fanout (XFS, 2.6.38), TCP window size (2.6.39), early retransmit (3.5), fast open (3.6, 3.7), tail loss probe (3.10), autocorking (3.14), anti-bufferbloat (3.14), etc.
It came down to ZFS, DTrace, and Zones as the differentiating features. If you look at Linux today, and what we run at Netflix, we already have ZFS, eBPF, and containers.
Anyway, I've discussed this topic before, here on hackernews:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13081465
You might still have some corner case reason to still run illumos. But bear in mind that Linux today, in 2018, is completely, completely, different to 2010 when we created illumos. 8 years is a long time in Linux.
edit: you have got me thinking, however. As someone who promoted illumos years ago (or any technology), and then stopped, I may have a responsibility to properly explain why I stopped (beyond answering questions when directly asked). I was hoping my Solaris to Linux post[1] was the last time I pour effort down the Solaris drain, but maybe I need one more.
[1] http://www.brendangregg.com/blog/2017-09-05/solaris-to-linux...