This is so true. And for your last point there is veganic farming that excludes animal products in the process. It’s awesome and growing.

People love to think of vegans as naive children but most people don’t think anything about their food and the vegans I know do actual research on what happens and how to live better.

Do they exclude dung/urine too? It seems they must if honey is an excluded product? Growing under those restrictions must be very difficult.

I don't think it makes sense to discuss such details as if all vegans thought alike. There are many differences in thought among them, as in any group of humans.

But I would like to point out that this argument by analogy is flawed: Honey is food for the bees themselves. Taking it away harms the bees by making them work harder for their survival. (Unless you can prove that you only take a surplus that they would never touch.) In contrast, excrement from animals like cows or horses is not used by the animal itself.

As someone else pointed out in this thread, if necessary, many vegans could probably get behind a world were animals were raised for the use of their excrement but nothing else.

Cow shit fertilises the pasture and feeds other creatures/life in the ecosystem ultimately taking its part in creating an environment for the animal. Moreover the seeds the animal disperses will be lost if you abscond with their excretions.

There's a very real way in which a cow, say, feedsback in to the environment. It's less direct than stealing bee vomit, but still a part of the feeding cycle.

The reason I compared them though was primarily that collecting animal faeces of large mammals would probably be an overall negative (cf. bat guano) unless you artificially confined the beasts?

It seemed to me that the necessary interference in the animals natural cycles would be akin to good beekeeping (where an apiarist can prevent hive death, increase food availability, etc.).

Yep, that’s the point, avoid all byproducts.

I’ve seen more products labeled as veganic so it seems doable and they weren’t too much more expensive than organic bread or what have you.

>> tires... vegan?

> No.

Tires are rather hard to eat in general, so I guess that alone makes them unsuitable for a vegan diet. But I suspect that's not the real reason. What is the actual rationale then?

"Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose." - The Vegan Society

Veganism for most is more than just food, it's includes seeking to reduce animal exploitation and suffering in any aspect of your life.

People who eat a vegan diet but ignore animal product consumption in leather, wool, cosmetics are not considered vegan by most vegans, it's usually referred to as "plant-based diet".

> People who eat a vegan diet but ignore animal product consumption in leather, wool, cosmetics are not considered vegan by most vegans, it's usually referred to as "plant-based diet".

Variations of vegetarian? Vegetarianism seems to be solely about diet, whereas veganism is abstaining from animal products in general.

There are people who avoid meat/dairy for their own benefit. Because they have allergies to it, or have heard eating meat is unhealthy etc.

There are others who avoid them for the animals' benefit, to avoid animal suffering. Because there is no rationale for treating humans' lives as of infinite value, and animals as mere meat machines, fish as just 'stock' for humans etc—except that we are humans and they're not. That naturally extends to avoiding use of other animal 'products' besides food.

Racism and slavery are other phenomena in which an 'out-group' is treated as not worthy of ethical consideration, as not really mattering, just because they're defined as 'not us'. In these situations, there's a similar difference of opinion in just who the life forms whose lives and suffering matter in the situation are. And if you're brought up in a racist or slave-owning tradition, you (at best) resent the hell out of anyone suggesting you that you are unethical, inconsiderate for being that way. How dare they! Who do they think they are, thinking they're better than me! etc.

It will one day seem very odd that nowadays if you abuse and kill a dog or cat you can go to jail; abuse and kill a million chickens or cows and you can be a millionaire.

To return to the point, I've come across both ethical vegetarians and dietary vegetarians (to perhaps coin phrases); some tried going vegan but it didn't work for them; some think avoiding meat is doing enough, it being quite hard to avoid all dairy when eating out. But there are many variations. A lot of people seem to avoid meat, but not fish, even calling themselves vegetarian. I'm kind of 'lazy vegan', I try to never eat/use/buy animal products, without going nuts about it—always trying to ascertain that what I eat from cafes or friends is totally vegan would be a huge pain, for myself and others.

Really depends per vegan.

If you already own a leather coat, and you become vegan, not one animal suffered more from you owning that coat.

A lot of vegans think very black and white, but there are also vegans and groups of vegans who are more nuanced such as the Facebook group "Friendly and Pragmatic Vegans".

In my experience from organizing conferences people who self-identify as vegetarians eat milk products and eggs, though sometimes reluctantly. Vegans don't.

> In my experience from organizing conferences people who self-identify as vegetarians eat milk products and eggs, though sometimes reluctantly.

That's why I used the word "variations". Vegetarians can be "baseline" (no meat), "lacto" (no dairy) and "ovo" (no eggs). A lacto-ovo-vegetarian would eat no meat, dairy or eggs, but it would still only be about diet.

Honest question: What are a vegan's views on pets and work animals, such as a horse who pulls a cart to the vegetable market.

From what I've seen, pets are not ideal, but also a low priority.

Work animals are usually limited to less industrialized situations, so they're not usually a concern for the same people. I've never known anybody who used a work animal, with the exception of riding horses if you count that.

Vegans tend to love animals, and that inspires them to follow a vegetarian and eventually vegan diet. (The non-diet part tends to follow afterwards. See it as an on-going process, like learning things in life is.)

Most vegans I know are totally OK with pets. Some own dogs, cats, or horses. Some aren't, and some hate cats for the damage they cause (apparently a big problem in Australia). It isn't common, but some vegans tried to make their cat vegetarian or vegan as well (cats are natural carnivores).

Reading my post back my post it is rather generalising, and vague ("most", "some", lacking sources, and anecdotal). Sorry for that, but hey at least I both state it and admit it.

I understand that.

But how does animal suffering correlate with the tire production?

> if everyone stopped eating those animals, the prices of these products would presumably make their use uneconomical

If everyone stopped eating animals, the prices of a lot of plant agriculture might become uneconomical. My mistake for bringing in the organic/not distinction, since almost all non-organic fertilizers use some amount of animal products too. It's just that organic ones almost certainly use animal products.

(Very) broadly speaking, you can grow grains and legumes at scale without soil amendments from animals, though IDK about cost. You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products.

Like Diogenes living on handouts in Athens and decrying the materialist way of life, you can enjoy an economical vegan diet only if the world around you is not.

> You cannot grow fruits and vegetables at scale without soil amendments from animal products.

I'm skeptical about the truth of this statement, but open minded. Could you provide a source?

There are plenty of plant-based fertilizers, as well. If humans primarily farmed animals for manure-based fertilizer, many vegans would be pretty thrilled, whether it meets the textbook definition of vegan, or not.