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Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by nickbauman on Thursday February 01, 2018 @12:42PM (#16283854)
The problems we're seeing with cryptocurrencies are utterly unsurprising if you know what money really is and how it actually works.

I think people who are excited about cryptocurrencies assume that money is merely a tool to facilitate transactions between parties of people. The fundamental model of this is two people bartering goods, lol, in some sort of imagined "forest primeval" before money was invented. That money is just a substitute for that behavior. It's hopelessly naive.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by wcoenen on Thursday February 01, 2018 @05:10PM (#16286412)
> if you know what money really is and how it actually works

OK, I'll bite. What is money really and how does it actually work?

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by tim333 on Friday February 02, 2018 @02:33AM (#16289036)
>What is money really and how does it actually work?

On of the most interesting ideas I've read on this is from Debt The First 5000 Years, written by an anthropologist who took the approach of studying how societies actually use money rather than the economists approach of coming up with theories without much looking at real people.

Basically he says the idea that it originated from barter is pretty much never found in the historical record. 'Primitive' societies tend more to tally favours so you give someone food one day, it's remembered and they help you fix your roof another, without any formal currency measure. Formal currencies were often forced on people with threats of violence to get the natives to do stuff. Say you want to raise an army you declare a tax on everyone of so many coins which they can earn by feeding or serving in your army and people who don't come up with the tax are attacked in some manner.

Or you come up with some debt everyone owes and that kind of thing. Eg from the book

>In 1895, for example, France invaded Madagascar...

>...and declared the country a French colony. One of the first things General Gallieni did after “pacification,” as they liked to call it then, was to impose heavy taxes on the Malagasy population, in part so they could reimburse the costs of having been invaded...

leading on to in the modern day:

>But owing to IMF-imposed austerity programs, the government had to cut the [malaria] monitoring program. Ten thousand people died. I met young mothers grieving for lost children...

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by nickbauman on Friday February 02, 2018 @11:50AM (#16291990)
The taxation example you cite is key. That the way history tells the story is that money was invented by state actors to finance military power. This endeavor has the side effect of creating a market economy. So states create markets, which implies markets require states. And the military power is as much turned inward than outward: you end up with police protection over the transaction coming ultimately from state actors.

Over time cryptocurrencies will adopt all these features of government regulation and police protection over the transactions if it is to become ubiquitous. So, just another analog of any other money system we already have.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by zackmorris on Thursday February 01, 2018 @07:28PM (#16287274)
I would say that money is a measure of inefficiency. Say for example you hire a mechanic to fix your car. You pay the mechanic's shop for parts and labor. The cost of parts represents inefficiencies in how they're manufactured, the markups of middlemen, the high cost of raw materials from nonrecycled sources, etc etc. Labor represents your lack of knowledge about how to fix your own car, plus the time involved to fix things on your car like water pumps that (due to uninspired design) fail much earlier than they should.

In an ideal world where you drive a solar-powered car with a dozen moving parts built by robots from recycled materials, costs would fall to a fraction of what they are now. With the same automation applied across all industries, prices would fall to the point where the opportunity cost for humans to be in debt/servitude to rent-seeking financial institutions would exceed the benefit of using money in the first place.

This is basically what happened on Star Trek and is likely to happen in coming decades with Tesla, Amazon etc as humans can no longer compete with machine labor. Things will cost less but incomes will be so low that we won't be able to afford them anyway. Personally I would argue that that started happening sometime after the late 1960s and has gotten to the point where the status quo can only be propped up by every-growing absurdities on a global scale.

An oldie but goodie:

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by maratd on Thursday February 01, 2018 @10:46PM (#16288247)
Really? That’s depressing. Money can be anything you want it to be, so how about this.

Money = thank you points

You give it to people you’re thankful to, who either did something nice for you or gave you something you wanted.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by zackmorris on Friday February 02, 2018 @12:35PM (#16292355)
Ya I like that better too. I'd like to see us move beyond a world of artificial scarcity to one where everyone's basic needs are met and people can focus on self-actualization. If people want a mansion, great, they can work for it. But if people want to be left alone so they can explore the meaning of life, then they should be free to do so and whatever money is used at that point should go to things that are special. Kind of a Burning Man philosophy maybe?
Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by nickbauman on Saturday February 03, 2018 @12:18PM (#16298464)
Interesting thought experiment! One things that's missing from this is — historically — any economic endeavor that has a continual increase of efficiency ends up being highly volatile in the marketplace. So when prices have this continual downward pressure eventually the market collapses altogether.
Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by fdchn2018 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @12:55PM (#16283990)
Finally created an account to reply to this. There is a great thread on Reddit called - Where has all the world's money gone, explain it like I'm 5. It starts from a convenient barter system. As I was reflecting on the various ICOs I realised that the technology and the blockchain makes the old barter system very efficient. So I do believe that in fact it is a substitute for that behaviour. In fact Im convinced that bitcoin or something like it will become the new gold. If you also think about why we needed to elect representatives, it was so that they would represent the needs of the people. Once I can vote/discuss a topic on the blockchain, I dont need representatives anymore. The blockchain and crypto currencies are going to change the way democracies operate. We're not going to need our elected leaders. This is why you see them spreading so much FUD. Cause they know they're going to be irrelevant in the system and access to all that money is going to go. Tomorrow if I want to build a bridge - going to setup a smart contract - with escrow payments - validated by the people. You hit your milestone and the money gets released. And why not it be digital money. This new wave is being built ground up and govts cannot stop it - even if they want.
Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by naravara on Thursday February 01, 2018 @01:28PM (#16284354)
>Where has all the world's money gone, explain it like I'm 5. It starts from a convenient barter system. As I was reflecting on the various ICOs I realised that the technology and the blockchain makes the old barter system very efficient.

There was no "old barter system" the way modern people think of it. The idea that pre-commercial economies operated on a "barter system" in the sense that people are directly exchanging goods of similar value is just a simplifying metaphor early economists made to explain how commercial transactions work.

Pre-commercial economies operate more like gift economies. It's not so much about trading objects based on their valuation, it's about doing favors for people with the expectation that they will do favors back for you. It takes strong bonds of social trust and cohesion for this to work. Everyone has to have a sense of obligation to pitch in for the community.

The bartering only comes in as a form of collateral when dealing with outsiders (people you don't trust as much). This is why the earliest form of exchanges in this way were tied to marriages (e.g. dowries, bride prices) or interactions with other political groups (e.g. treaties, armistice).

Barter doesn't actually work, it's basically just a format for giving collateral to make sure people don't welch on deals. Normal currency already solves that problem way better than trust chains based exchange does because the value is obvious and exchanged up front without having to go through any clearing-house to be validated.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by dsr_ on Thursday February 01, 2018 @01:44PM (#16284493)
One of the leading theories about the invention of written numbers and arithmetic is to handle accounting for debts that would last longer than a few weeks or involve many people -- that is, as a supplement to memory for the purpose of credit/debt.

So at the dawn of agriculture, people weren't using barter -- they were using credit unions.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by naravara on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:03PM (#16284694)
And it's easy to speculate how someone would come up with something like that to help adjudicate disputes after having enough he said/she said arguments.

Literally chisel some hash-marks into a rock so people don't "forget" and problem solved.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by qubex on Thursday February 01, 2018 @02:50PM (#16285208)
If anybody is interested by (or feels like contesting) this view of how earlier economies functioned without money and/or how money came to be, I highly recommend Debt by David Graeber (a self-declared radical activist, instigator of the Occupy Wall Street movement, and brilliant anthropologist — I had the good fortune of attending some of his letters, and he is enthralling).
Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by hndamien on Thursday February 01, 2018 @10:51PM (#16288266)
Reading this made me even more bullish on crypto currencies. Every time there is a crash I listen to the audiobook.
Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by IntronExon on Thursday February 01, 2018 @01:00PM (#16284039)
That’s a long way to go to just proselytize without addressing any of the previous concerns. You seem to be reading from the same script all of the “new accounts” use to boost cryptocurrency as well. Finally you claim governments can’t stop something which creates a cryptographically secure “paper” trail.

No.

Re:Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up by fdchn2018 on Thursday February 01, 2018 @01:05PM (#16284080)
Everyone in crypto world knows that Tether is borderline fraud. Everyone's waiting for this correction. It's important for the coin and the people who invested in tether may get shafted. It's an important learning lesson. There are a lot of coins that may just not go anywhere. Don't read the whitepapers and make the right conclusions - and you're burned. Not defending tether at all. The top commenter is absolutely right about tether. Hope it dies fast.