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Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by dalbasal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:31AM (#16265075)
Well... These are the (large) cracks in rule of law that no one has ever managed to close entirely.

It's dangerous to criminalise political tier decisions and actions, just like it's dangerous to prosecute former politicians. It harms the ability to preserve peaceful transitions. Criminals or not.

First, it opens a door to political purging. Also incentives to use power in order to remain free is just too big.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by turc1656 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:55AM (#16265254)
I agree with you generally, but not in this case. Anyone with a double digit IQ should have been able to know that this was illegal. This wasn't one of those gray areas where federal agents are wondering how far their power goes. A simple comprehension of basic human rights as they have been acknowledged formally in law should lead any decent, reasonable person to conclude these surveillance programs were seriously against the law. That's why I don't apply the same good faith exemption that most law enforcement receives most of the time. This is gross, willful negligence and they are now trying to claim ignorance.
Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by pmyteh on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @06:50AM (#16273158)
It's not quite obvious. British constitutional theory holds Parliament to be completely sovereign - so the concept of an illegal piece of statute law is a bit alien.

The only real constraints on Parliament's freedom of legislation are the body of EU law, and the European Convention on Human Rights. The former is variously directly and indirectly applicable in UK law, and the latter is enforced both by UK statute (which can be overridden by Parliament) and by oversight from an external court (which has limited enforcement powers).

I agree that the surveillance law is obviously bad policy, but it wasn't obviously in breach of either EU law or the ECHR. The English court of appeal thought that it wasn't, but referred it to the Court of Justice of the European Union for a binding opinion, because they decided the question was finely balanced. CJEU ruled that it was in breach of articles 7 and 8 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, so the Court of Appeal made a domestic declaration that the statute was in breach of EU law.

The full judgment is at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2018/70.html, if you're interested.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by mtgx on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:23AM (#16265967)
But we're talking about courts deciding to put politicians in prison here.

And if somehow a political leader has managed to corrupt/threaten 3 court levels, then you've got bigger things to worry about, and chances are such a person would take other measures to get rid of his political opponents that are much faster.

Also, it's not like you can't ever arrest a politician. There are laws and countries that do put politicians in prison, especially in cases on corruption.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by dalbasal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:50AM (#16266209)
It's not necessarily about corrupting the courts. It is about maintaining influence or outright control over police, prosecution, legislation or whatever body (very often a political body, as in The States) is responsible for investigating or prosecuting political offenses.

In failed rule of law states, it has often happened that former politicians were/are criminalized. This can make losing power, in practice, directly lead to losing life & freedom. This then becomes a mandate to maintain power by whatever means necessary.

It also opens the door to political purges of oponenets.

I'll take an example from the Middle East (my home). When Saddam lost power, he was hanged. Gadaffi was lynched. Mubarak was imprisoned, then released when his faction came back into power. This creative an imperative for Assad to maintain power in Syria. Losing power is a death warrant for him, and he is willing to kill even more brutally to preserve himself.

In Israel, Netanyahu is under criminal investigation. He has immunity from prosecution while in power, but not from investigation. This is very dangerous and many analysts (including US generals and spooks) are worried he will start a war in order to consolidate power. tricky stuff.

These are not rule of law states, and they do not have independant judiciaries. But the principle stand. This is why I found (for example) Trump's threats to Clinton so disturbing. If he had followed up, the entire american system would be in danger.

Realistically, the process in place is there for a reason. Small crimes (eg Clinton's emails or Trump's contact with Russia, if it doesn't turn out to be worse than reported thus far) are swept under a rug. Large crimes (Clinton's BJ?) should be investigated through some non-criminal (courts are OK, the US system is suboptimal here) system where life and freedom are not at stake, just power.

Courts cannot be subsidiaries of executive-legislative power (even in the states where it is explicitely forbidden executive & legislative are not really seperate) but the opposite also cannot be.

It is ugly the way it is. We should be doing better. But, there really are fundamental issues here with the stability of democracies at stake.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by wu-ikkyu on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:21PM (#16267031)
>In failed rule of law states, it has often happened that former politicians were/are criminalized.

If they were "criminalized" and no one had the power to lock them up, there was no rule of law in the first place. There was a dictatorship masquerading as a democracy.

"The Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by eeZah7Ux on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:15AM (#16265410)
> It's dangerous to criminalise political tier decisions and actions

Politicians should not be above the law.

On the contrary, the public figures are supposed to be more transparent and held accountable more readily than private citizens.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by dalbasal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:07AM (#16266349)
Morally, I agree with you. My former prime minister is in jail for graft, theft essentially. He will spend less time in prison (though fortunately he is at least serving some) than a common thief even though the damage he has done is imesurably greater.

The reason I argue the opposite (OP) is for practical rather than moral reasons. Morals are a luxury. Systemic stability is at stake and is a requisite for any rule of law.

That said, prosecuting legislators and/or political executives for ilegal legislation is far too dangerous, essentially merging all branches of government.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by qubex on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:09AM (#16266380)
The law is the output of politicians so in a certain sense they can collectively always pass legislation that protects themselves anyway so there’s not much point in compelling them into doing so by prosecuting them.

Parliamentary immunity also exists in many countries to ensure that parliamentarians cannot be prosecuted for acts they undertook whilst in office (or other acts, so they that they cannot be compelled into anything).

You’re never going to get a body politic to pass a law that places them all at risk, and if somehow one got through, they’d pretty quickly pass another one to repeal it.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:06PM (#16266907)
In the UK the Queen passes the laws, so there seems no reason she couldn't issue a writ making particular actions of MPs unlawful.

Presumably she doesn't because she rather likes the money and the palaces more than she wants to settle the question as to how you have a parliamentary democracy and monarchy with "you don't".

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by qubex on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:02PM (#16268991)
I don’t know if that is even possible within the confines of the UK’s latter-day (uncodified) constitutional monarchy, but the Queen resuming the practice of unilaterally imposing laws upon Parliament and the Realm at large would be one of the most terrifying regressions of the past several centuries.

Besides, the scenario you depict further reinforces my argument that there’s a “trusted root” at the apex of our democracies and that this entity (whether the Queen, or Parliament, or Congress, or the President, or whatever-have-you) can pursue its own interests with abandon, and there’s nothing we buggers further down the pyramid can do to prevent it.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @11:31AM (#16275089)
If the Queen imposed a requirement for MPs who sponsor laws to go to prison if those laws clearly beach the ECHR (or maybe HRA) who'd complain?

It's far less terrifying to me that the present Queen can do that than that any oligarch with a £100M to spare can probably "lobby" to get the changes they want.

The royal family are in a dicey position, but I trust the current Queen more than MP s in general, but perhaps less than the 2 Houses as a whole. She can probably do anything that goes with either Parliament OR with the demos but couldn't go against both.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by ascorbic on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:18PM (#16269616)
It's not illegal to pass a bad law. When the Supreme Court finds the law is incompatible with the Human Rights Act or EU law, they rule that the law needs to be changed. They don't prosecute the MPs that voted for it.
Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by wu-ikkyu on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:41AM (#16265600)
It appears your argument against prosecuting criminal politicians boils down to being afraid of their power and what would happen if you did? Seems like a weak argument from authority.
Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by shaki-dora on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:59AM (#16265764)
"Argument from authority" means something entirely different, although your use here is somewhat amusing.

You're also misunderstanding the argument: It's not the powerful politicians that are frightening, it's the powerless. By prosecuting (former) politicians, you're not creating disincentives against abuse of power, you're disincentivising loss of power.

That's the hard-to-accept logic behind the mostly deferential treatment the Nixons and Mugabes of the world today get after they lost power.

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by wu-ikkyu on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:07PM (#16266917)
This is still a weak excuse for allowing politicians to break the law. It's like saying we shouldn't go after child molesters because they might kill the police so they can keep molesting children.

>By prosecuting (former) politicians, you're not creating disincentives against abuse of power

Do you think prosecuting people who committed crimes creates a disincentive against crime?

>you're disincentivising loss of power.

The same could be said for (former) leaders of drug cartels and mafia bosses, but we still go after them (as well as the current ones), don't we?

Loss of power is already by default highly disincentivized, which is why people want to hold on to it for as long as they can. It's also why we enforce term limits and have checks and balances. However those checks and balances are quite toothless when you elevate politicians above the law.

"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." -Aesop

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:10PM (#16266939)
Do you think those who gave prosecution (PM May is I've presumably) have enough power to move the UK out of begin a democracy (of sorts) in order to avoid prosecution.

Troops on the streets?

Re:UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful by dalbasal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:33AM (#16266607)
Exactly my meaning, just stated more clearly :)