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Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by candiodari on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:19AM (#16263496)
Minitel: what should have been a cautionary tale. Allowing "service providers" to charge money for every last little thing anyone does on a service results in, first a race to the bottom, as prices are compared. Second, a rush to ways to generate extra revenue through various irritating and scammy ways (the Yellow pages were full, and I do mean to the brim, of scams, same for the "porn" (mostly text or chat based, some very creative "graphical" stuff), ...). Then those scams become so pervasive that trust in the system is completely lost, which makes it useless. Three, rapid mass abandonment when even a lower quality "free" alternative becomes available (internet over slow modems, hell, even BBSes posed a serious challenge to minitel).

The thing people always forget to mention is that minitel was metered. Every second you spent on minitel was charged, with some part of that charge shared with the content provider. There were also content providers (ie. "webshops") that paid for the customers to be able to be on their site for free.

The reaction to increased scams ? Why France Telecom stared charging more, of course, making the scams worse ... and worse ... and worse. Then suddenly all was abandoned in 2003 or so, with only paid-for sites remaining (essentially web banking, and some stock broker type stuff that's similar but more complex than web banking).

Of course, the whole exercise was repeated with "value added services" on Cell phones in the late 90s and early 2000s (also charged by the "time spent online", and also filled to the brim with scams), and now again with android and iphone.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by Jraf on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:43AM (#16263815)
Hi, i disagree. A (dumb) terminal in each french house. For free ! in the 80's!

As we had one in every house, there was "online" services which were very popular. Like school registration and ordering. And nationwide yellow pages! 24/7 ! Without the need to get to the post office to check for the county directory, on opening hours .

It was also a wonderful tool to connect people in communities. There was different rate charge and the cheapest were very low. I remember spending nights and nights chatting. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTEL

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by hazeii on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:14AM (#16263944)
Then, of course, there were the messageries roses (translated roughly as 'pink message areas' - adults only, of course!).
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by buserror on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:10AM (#16264166)
I used to work as a system's engineer for the biggest service provider of the minitel era, back in 1989+. MOST of the services were for professionals -- in fact the biggest by far for volume and revenue was a transport exchange for lorries...

There were a few 'pink services' (can't call that porn really, it was just chatbots with (sometimes!) real 'hostesses') as mentioned, but they were nowhere near the biggest. The biggest after the lorry service were sport services (Stade 2 etc during footy times or Tour de France) -- then .gov stuff and education (exam results).

I think for most people the 'pink services' were the ones that were advertised most, therefore there is a bias as to what was used and popular at the time, but from my point of view, it was nowhere near as popular as what people believe.

For the technically minded, we were running a (lot) of Pr1me computers running Primos -- in fact we were their primary customers before they died; we eventually moved on to HPUX on the very first PA-RISC that came out. The Pr1mes continued ticking along for a long while...

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by walshemj on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:42AM (#16265160)
Ineresting I never new that BT's other online service Telecom Gold also used Pr1me's I think we where the largest non black user in the UK - I used to have root on all of them and super root on the billing systems.
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by buserror on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @11:58AM (#16266844)
The primary reason we used them was the pretty cool 'ring' LAN that was X25 based -- since everything else was X25/X29 (Transpac) it was a natural choice. Remember back then available ethernet was still coax.

And speaking of root -- on the Pr1me was also 'root' as a system engineer, and I remember fondly the day I messed up the parenthesis in a macro, and ran a tool that proceeded to memset() and erase the whole of the shared memory on the machine. That was about 30 people who all called.... the system's engineer (me!) to ask what was going on! Needless to say, it was blamed on a cosmic ray.

When we switched to HP it took quite a while to get the same level of performance with HP's own X25 hardware/software. It's also the one and only time I ever played with X25 socket() API.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by hazeii on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:33PM (#16268225)
I thought they were GEC's but might well have been Primes.

I do recall being in Baynard House one night and having a furious shift leader burst in and shout that he wasn't putting up with Shades overloading various mainframes around the country ("what, my little box?" :) ).

Although I never saw much backroom stuff on Minitel, from the outside it was pretty sweet compared to working with BT.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by walshemj on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:40PM (#16269307)
Prestel was GEC's GEC 4082's Telecom Gold Was Pr1mes I think all 750's

I should have really had a trip out to baynard to check it out as I was I suppose the dev-op on the Dialcom side working on the new Billing system.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by candiodari on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:14AM (#16264949)
What happened to the thousands of miscellaneous services that were at one point provided ?

What I mean to say is that minitel was in an incredible position to grow and be a massive platform, worth 3 digit billions of dollars, and instead traded this potential for charging for every second.

This pushed all the random services (granted, mostly chat, and forum like things) that were cool at one point off off it, and first onto BBS'es, then the internet came with some free server space included in virtually every internet package. A lot of these were initially let on the platform, then bled dry, and died.

But minitel, without a doubt, could instead have pushed those services, and could have made it easy and cheap to host one of them, a decade before the internet arrived and it would have spread like wildfire instead of the internet, sooner, faster and with a few upgrades maybe even better. Instead, it charged by the second, made maybe 100 million euros total profit and died without any evolution at all. Because of France Telecom's business practices, everything on it was bled dry and was always losing money. And FT is a monopolist, they just bleed their services dry, and when they die, no replacement is forthcoming. At least things like Amazon have the decency to still offer the service when they destroy their supplyers. FT, however, just destroys.

And it was all for nothing. Despite forcing these charges, it has (well, had, these days) a reputation in the financial industry for being a place where sometimes interesting companies become shady, then die. All killed in the name of France Telecom's business model, and nonexistent profits, just so it could do it's charge-by-the-second thing (perhaps you can notice that I'm not a fan of telcos). Just so all the "profit" could go to France Telecom and nobody else could maintain a living on it.

Minitel is the ultimate example of France Telecom's economic sabotage : a massive monopolist that just couldn't stomach other people profiting even a bit of their platform and ending up destroying the market it had a monopoly over, all because of management incompetence, intransigence and utter indifference. It's not just that they didn't see the opportunity, as that requires looking for opportunities in the first place : they just didn't care. FT management is a reward position you get when some important politician owes you a favor, which makes it a given that high level managers are utterly incompetent, because either they are incompetent, or they're not incompetent and are aware that it's a favor : their days are numbered before they start, so they bleed the position for all it's worth and spend their time elsewhere.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by buserror on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @12:11PM (#16266945)
The company I worked for was filthy rich with Minitel. I don't know where you heard there wasn't money in it, but even with Transpac charges it was making a scary bundle for the operators... Of course there might have been an economy of scale in our case, but it was scary.

They were bringing Ruinart champagne /by the pallet/ for employees to enjoy. Basically you could throw a party any day (for anything! like "I've just got new shoes", and you had unlimited champagne. Remember that was in 1989 -- a LONG time before dot.com era and even a long time before the excess of the 90's. Also a long time before it became socially inadequate to be rather drunk at work (on champagne only, mind you).

The employee benefits were also incredible, even by banking standard. I think we had 8 or 9 weeks paid holidays, and anything you didn't take was... paid to you at the end of the year, on top of the bonus (which was also generous).

In other words, not exactly a company that was skimping...

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by candiodari on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:25PM (#16270337)
Okay, and what happened to that company past, say, 1998-2000 ?
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by buserror on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @01:58AM (#16272080)
Went into service, eventually became Atos origin. I doubt any of the original benefits survived!
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by Jyaif on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:51AM (#16266216)
> made maybe 100 million euros total profit

In 1998, Minitel generated €832 million of revenue, of which €521 million was channelled by France Télécom to service providers.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by blowski on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:54AM (#16263858)
Where there's brass, there's muck. I doubt it's even possible to create a system that's universally useful while not being susceptible to scams and all the other crappy bits of humanity.
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by duncan_bayne on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:37AM (#16264488)
Sure there is! It's actually pretty easy. Just send me the shipping costs by wire transfer and I'll post you a book that explains how.
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by digi_owl on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:27PM (#16267613)
The early days of European internet was similarly metered.

Very few nations had anything like the US system of local calls being free.

Only with the advent of DSL etc did flat fee net connections become "common".

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by candiodari on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:27PM (#16270348)
But minitel was different, the charge depended on the site you were on, and to some extent the charge was shared with the site.

All sites on minitel were like premium-rate phone numbers, differently priced ones.

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by digi_owl on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @10:58PM (#16271161)
So something akin to BBSs with a central registry?
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by candiodari on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @10:45AM (#16274703)
Something like the BBSes on premium numbers.
Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by M_Bakhtiari on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:42AM (#16264771)
>Minitel: what should have been a cautionary tale. Allowing "service providers" to charge money for every last little thing anyone does on a service

Which reminds me, that's also one of the rules of Project Xanadu: http://xanadu.com.au/general/faq.html#2

I wonder if that had turned out the same way had it ever been completed (or shall I say whether it will turn out the same way if it's ever completed?)

Re:Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [... by walshemj on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:43AM (#16265167)
yep that's why services that charged for every last thing didn't take off