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Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by 9214 on Monday January 29, 2018 @08:21AM (#16257306)
My graduate project at university was about air-gap malware, soft TEMPEST and hacking on industrial PLCs (S7-300, Stuxnet and all that :P).

What terrified me most is not only the state of ICS nowadays (it's pretty much fucked), but also the fact that cyber-security vendors try to make a profit from that by shoving their products down the throats of scared managers.

And what @donquchotte says is pretty much true - on facility there I practiced, all PLC were connected via TeamViewer to company network, passwords were written on stickers and slapped on monitors. They used Modbus over TCP, plain-text packets easily viewable with Wireshark.

On the first day I accidentally broke my S7 because of wrongly uploaded configuration, it took them 3 days to find some special Siemens laptop to connect to this PLC and reset it. Also tried to play around with Metasploit and follow the work of Beresford [1,2], but the most trivial attack of mine was just flood on PLC's IP with random junk - it stopped responding to any commands.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33kouEKm0zo

[2]: https://github.com/moki-ics/s7-metasploit-modules

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by lima on Monday January 29, 2018 @09:19AM (#16257590)
The first time I tried to automate the S7-1200 web UI, it crashed hard when I sent a POST requests with an empty body.

These things do not belong anywhere near the internet, patched or not.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by daemin on Monday January 29, 2018 @11:29AM (#16258409)
Pretty much built for someone that knows exactly what they are doing. Like they've read the manuals cover-to-cover and taken an exam.
Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by blincoln on Monday January 29, 2018 @11:55AM (#16258650)
An industrial control system that crashes when it receives an unexpected network request isn't built for someone that knows exactly what they are doing. It was built by someone who wanted to expend the minimum effort possible and make contingency-handling someone else's problem.

This isn't just about hacking. A device that crashes hard when it receives a POST with an empty body may do the same thing if there's a physical glitch with its connection, or if a cosmic ray flips a bit somewhere. Devices that control industrial machinery should be more reliable than that.

If this were a hobbyist project, or a toy, that would be one thing, but these are specialized devices that cost a lot of money. They're fragile liabilities that don't belong anywhere near a shared network.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by folkhack on Monday January 29, 2018 @01:50PM (#16259662)
> An industrial control system that crashes when it receives an unexpected network request isn't built for someone that knows exactly what they are doing.

Yeah - I can see even the simplest of network vulnerability scans wreak havoc on a device like this.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by Parcissons on Monday January 29, 2018 @03:18PM (#16260302)
Its enough to just plug in a cable into two switch ports.
Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by daemin on Monday January 29, 2018 @05:22PM (#16261169)
Yeah, that's the reasoning someone needs to use as to why something like this exists. It only works at all if you everything exactly correct.
Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by karmicthreat on Monday January 29, 2018 @12:35PM (#16259052)
I am not convinced air-gap is even a good idea for PLC networks. More and more these systems are developed by consultants and OEMs. Who then need to service and troubleshoot them. I work for an OEM with this problem and it plagues me all the time. "Sorry, I can not fix your issue without access and I am not flying someone down for this."

This business reality is going to get worse as time goes on. Companies would be receptive to change if people at the executive level were educated first. The carrot being more cost effective system development.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by junkcollector on Monday January 29, 2018 @01:23PM (#16259456)
I would argue that air gaps are critical in ICS networks and PLCs because it is an extreme safety risk to push a potentially bad update from offsite without clearing the operator. The major issue will be pushing back against cost pressure from management.

This is already turning into a major problem with IOT devices from supposedly reputable companies i.e. home thermostats that let pipes burst because of a bad or incorrectly pushed update. Now consider if that bad update could instead kill someone.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by snowwindwaves on Monday January 29, 2018 @01:53PM (#16259685)
The operator should never be in harms way period. If they are working on equipment it should be physically locked out, say a valve would have a 6" diameter pin through the mechanism and a padlock on it so the pin can't be removed except by the operator, and electrical equipment is powered off and the breaker is locked in the off position. If they put themselves in harms way they will eventually be fired for unsafe work.

bad updates are bad updates. they are incompetence on the part of the programmer. but the worst they should be able to cause is minor equipment malfunction or the physical system has been poorly designed.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by junkcollector on Monday January 29, 2018 @02:36PM (#16260025)
I think you misunderstand. When maintenance is being done on the machine itself, yes you are going to do a lock-out tag-out routine. On the flipside, if you remote push the update and it contains for instance, a register read error on the rate controller that shifts the bits by 1, the operator's first notice us going to be when he loads it up and the ensuing chatter violently throws the work piece.

Or something dumber, maybe they pushed a temp variable to the wrong type of memory (say flash eeprom) that updates every cycle of the control loop, and then did a push to an entire line of manufacturing equipment. Congratulations, all of those are going to brick in an hour or so when the memory hits it's maximum write cycle lifetime and you'll have to get new boards shipped in while your entire line is down.

Remote pushing needs to be handled very carefully when controlling real world equipment.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by snowwindwaves on Monday January 29, 2018 @03:00PM (#16260184)
My experience is limited controlling turbines, generators, pumps, valves, hydraulics, and dams using Schneider, Allen Bradley, and Unitronics PLCs. No motion controllers. no conveyor belts, no factories, no robots, no VFDs.

I have made a total of at least 7,500 remote updates over maybe 25 different control systems. In fact we basically get it working well enough the operators can handle day to day stuff and then go remote after that, because who wants to stay away from home at some dirty industrial site eating crappy food. The exception to that is backup power for hospitals, no remote access there and it is a simple enough system we can test all the different scenarios and then walk away.

Generally the last thing I put before an output in a PLC is some rate limiting. If it is a discrete output it won't be allowed to operate more than once every 5s for example. If it is an analog output it is limited to achieve the maximum desired actuator velocity or acceleration. This is a good catch all to avoid damaging equipment. I watched somebody learn this the hard way as a DC motor starter exploded when it was told to start and stop the motor 10 times a second.

Certainly I have made errors. A bad one was I forgot to limit a position so that it could not be less than 0. The position was subtracted from some other number. Substracting a negative number is adding! That was a nasty positive feedback loop that resulted in fast oscillations in the position of a 1m diameter pressure reducing valve. However that was during on site commissioning not remote.

Certainly for major changes I will require a shutdown and co-ordinate with the operators, but it is a judgement call on my part as to what I can program and test at the office and unleash on remote equipment vs. what needs to be tested on the actual equipment. Most testing on the equipment is required to determine the equipment characteristic.

Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by karmicthreat on Monday January 29, 2018 @03:19PM (#16260314)
A large amount of this sounds like just awareness, authorization and authentication issues with updates. The plant should be aware and know what changes are being made. As well as be able to roll them back.
Re:Vulnerable industrial controls directly connected to Inte... by laythea on Monday January 29, 2018 @01:54PM (#16259702)
I work in the industry and I can definitely say that these things aren't built to be internet facing, but nor should they be.