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Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by woodruffw on Thursday January 25, 2018 @10:47AM (#16231604)
I'm going to post this as a reply with the poster elided, since they deleted it and I think it's important:

>> Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

> The difference is that face of diversity initiatives are zero sum.

No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privileged group. That is what a zero-sum scenario would require.

Diversity initiatives level the playing field by increasing opportunities for one group relative to another. That doesn't necessarily mean that the disadvantaged group has more opportunities than the privileged group -- it only means that they have more than they did before.

Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by cdoxsey on Thursday January 25, 2018 @10:53AM (#16231672)
> No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privileged group. That is what a zero-sum scenario would require.

No it requires not hiring the privileged group.

If you are hiring 1000 employees, and 10000 applied, and you've ranked them in some way, adding "diversity" to the equation means the ranking comes out different. Ranked potential employee 1307 using the pre-diversity standard, becomes employee 904 under the post-diversity standard.

But to move up that ranking, by definition, other people had to be moved out of the way. Maybe potential employee 1000, who only barely squeaked by, is now potential employee 1012, and so doesn't make the cut.

This is exactly what happens at universities.

Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by cobookman on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:02AM (#16231755)
I just don’t buy that. Not every company has infinite head count.

Universities for example only have so many spots they can offer. So if a university keeps 10% of the spots for diversity candidates, then only 90% of the capacity is for diversity candidates.

Compounded with non diversity candidates applying in a disproportionately high number to diversity. And the population of non diverse having a better education. You end up making it harder for non diverse candidates and raising their bar.

Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:33AM (#16232063)
>You end up making it harder for non diverse candidates and raising their bar.

You're right but that's fine. The argument though is that society has already imposed a 'higher bar' on "diverse candidates" (let's just be honest and call them minorities and the poor.) Think of it like this. A poor black girl named Keycia lives at home with her single mother and three siblings. She's studious but attends a bad public school, she works after school to help out at home, she takes care of her little brothers and sisters. Now compare to Chad, a white boy from an upper middle class family. He's also studious and also attends a public school but a good one with AP/IB classes, dual credit and so on. He doesn't work but he does play on one of the best lacrosse teams in the state and also swims.

All of which is to say it's two kids both working hard. Now, even with diversity initiatives, who's got a better chance of getting into Stanford? Hell who's got a better chance of getting into Iowa State? Or even being able to attend? Diversity initiatives exist to put these two kids on even ground. That's what equality of opportunity means.

Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by xya3453 on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:41AM (#16232143)
In an alternative universe, Chad is a poor white boy who lives at home with his single mother and three siblings. He's studious but attends a bad public school, he works after school to help out at home, he takes care of his little brothers and sisters. In this universe Keycia is a black girl from an upper middle class family. She's also studious and also attends a public school but a good one with AP/IB classes, dual credit and so on. She doesn't work but she does play on one of the best lacrosse teams in the state and also swims.

Now, with diversity initiatives that are geared against Chad and in Keycia's favour, who's got a better chance of getting into Stanford?

Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:54AM (#16232292)
Sure! But that's an argument for more complex diversity initiatives (race, gender, AND poverty) which I'm totally fine with.
Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by kthejoker2 on Friday January 26, 2018 @01:57PM (#16241873)
I'm perfectly happy for Stanford to only be allowed to educate poor students with a racial population proportional to the US at large.
Re:The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem by xya3453 on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:06AM (#16231793)
> Diversity initiatives level the playing field by increasing opportunities for one group relative to another. That doesn't necessarily mean that the disadvantaged group has more opportunities than the privileged group -- it only means that they have more than they did before.

Most diversity initiatives aren't about equal opportunities but rather equal outcomes.