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Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by poelzi on Thursday January 25, 2018 @10:25AM (#16231372)
The fermi paradox bothered me quite a bit, like all paradoxes and they should bother everybody. They are a flag that something does not add up and there must be some sort of wrong assumption somewhere. As most of our combined "knowledge" does not add up correctly just one example is quantum mechanics and relativity - no, they do not add and therefor need higher dimensions to have a model (a emergency hatch).

It is quite funny when you understand that 2 general believed assumptions are the root cause for all the strangeness in our psysical models and very far down the line it explains why we will never receive alien EM signals in the area we a searching in - really makes no sense to scan there.

Non the less, I appreciate their efforts.

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by vanderZwan on Thursday January 25, 2018 @10:33AM (#16231450)
> It is quite funny when you understand that 2 general believed assumptions are the root cause for all the strangeness in our psysical models

Eh.. no? That's literally the opposite of how it works: it's not two strange assumptions causing all this weirdness, it's two very strange observed phenomena for which these two models give the best predictions, so far.

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by poelzi on Thursday January 25, 2018 @04:33PM (#16234883)
That is not what I meant. Both are objectively measurable results - of course if you look at critic voices the details in their implementation differ, but in general yes.

But there are different ways of implementing something and which one you choose depends on assumptions. If you use Field Equations for describing relativity you need a certain set of assumptions. If you use a different mechanism to describe relativity, you need another set.

You can't build a theory without assumptions.

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by pavel_lishin on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:06AM (#16231791)
It's not really a paradox, right? It's just a big equation and we're guessing at the variables.
Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by Chathamization on Thursday January 25, 2018 @11:15AM (#16231878)
We also have no reason to believe that we'd be able to detect other civilizations, even if there were millions out there. They might well be using other means of communication. Even if they were using the very thing we were looking for, it's still likely we would miss them - even if they were right next door to us. From SETI's FAQ[1]:

> If an extraterrestrial civilization has a SETI project similar to our own, could they detect signals from Earth?

> In general, no. Most earthly transmissions are too weak to be found by equipment similar to ours at the distance of even the nearest star. But there are some important exceptions. High-powered radars and the Arecibo broadcast of 1974 (which lasted for only three minutes) could be detected at distances of tens to hundreds of light-years with a setup similar to our best SETI experiments.

It always seemed odd to me that people call this a paradox.

[1] https://www.seti.org/faq#obs1

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by poelzi on Thursday January 25, 2018 @04:47PM (#16234999)
From the perspective I gathered through understanding a very beautiful unified theory (not my model) - this is exactly my point. EM waves as we use it are useless for long distance communications. I even doubt that those waves will still be detectable in a different solar system as the general assumptions that our vacuum is a very homogeneous is not true for me (the underlaying dimensions are for me, but not the vaccum as we know it). I have much more effects that cause disturbances of such waves. Inside a solar system, there are also better techniques that are more stable in propagation then our Hertz EM waves. But unfortunately, we adopted a form of Maxwell Equations that are not suitable to describe the phenomena (the original equations in quaternion math can however). Nicolas Tesla did a lot of research in this area, but it is not very well known/understood. (From the model I'm using 3 forms are derived. As far as I dug into Tesla, he worked with 1 form. The 3rd form is the interesting one but very hard to produce /detect.)
Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by tabletiptop on Thursday January 25, 2018 @12:42PM (#16232752)
That would be the drake equation. The fermi paradox is just a philosophical question.
Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by EthanHeilman on Thursday January 25, 2018 @05:25PM (#16235294)
It is a paradox in the sense that most of the educated guesses result in a universe which is very different from the one we observe. The paradox exists between:

1. the admittedly weak evidence for each of the guesses

2. and the evidence that at least one of the guesses must be wrong.

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by jcranmer on Thursday January 25, 2018 @07:09PM (#16235987)
Calling them "educated guesses" is overstating the evidence. We don't have the datapoints to estimate how common life is or isn't in the galaxy by empiricism, and we don't have the scientific knowledge to derive the numbers from first principles. Divorced from reality, that means that the educated guesses are really "we come up with numbers we want and then bullshit an explanation for those numbers."

Another perspective is that, as we've understood better how our EM radiation percolates for space, radioastronomy basically can't find anyone who isn't in our solar system (except maybe if they directly try to talk to us). That means that even our failure to find life via SETI isn't evidence of anything.

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by EthanHeilman on Thursday January 25, 2018 @07:31PM (#16236106)
>the educated guesses are really "we come up with numbers we want and then bullshit an explanation for those numbers."

tomayto, tomahto. You won't get a strong defense of most of particular values for the drake equation from me. The question that remains is which of our guesses are wrong and why?

>Another perspective is that, as we've understood better how our EM radiation percolates for space, radioastronomy basically can't find anyone who isn't in our solar system (except maybe if they directly try to talk to us).

There are other aspects of the universe that don't agree with common assumptions about how it should appear if it were swarming with technological civilizations with a billion year head start on us. For instance we have yet to detect any stellar/galactic engineering. Then again I'm not particularly convinced by our assumptions about a billion year old technological civilizations.

Re:A New Recipe for Hunting Alien Life by jcranmer on Thursday January 25, 2018 @05:38PM (#16235389)
Fundamentally, there are four main responses to the Fermi paradox:

1. We really are the first.

2. Interstellar communication and travel is effectively impossible.

3. Interstellar communication and travel is possible, but is not executed in a sustained way for various cultural reasons.

4. Alien life exists, but we haven't or can't find it.

All of those explanations are very plausible answers. In fact, the notion that we "ought" to have found alien life by now is itself quite difficult to argue, because it relies on extrapolating estimates from 0 data points (note that we don't know how to become an interstellar species, and it's debatable if we even yet have the technological level to become an interplanetary one).