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Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by Retric on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:38PM (#16217974)
In terms of speeding stop lights are a floor function. Make the cut and save 2 minutes fail and lose 2 minutes. You only see cases where they lose that bet, but it's just a numbers game.

As to speeding, we have actual data on this stuff. So it's easy to demonstrate the risks are very low directly from accident rates vs # of speeders. The risk of early death vs time saved actually favors doing 5MPH over the speed limit on highways.

As to personal experience I only have ~45,000 cyclists which may be high or low. But it feels like a very large number.

PS: People try any justify their behavior, but statistically bike riders regularly risk death.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by emj on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @06:53PM (#16219065)
> People try any justify their behavior, but statistically bike riders regularly risk death.

The story about the dangerous jaywalker and bicyclists is a big falsehood if you look at the data. As I said; cyclists have the same behaviour than others have in traffic. The truth is that cyclists live longer, even with all the risky behaviour you think cylists are prone to.

The thing that is risky is spending ones life in a car, on so many levels. You refrase things so it seems like cyclists are to blame for being killed by cars when we know that is actually not the case. Just because the party line today is that jaywalkers and cyclists are worse than others doesn't mean there is any actualy evidence for it.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by Retric on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @07:50PM (#16219386)
Their are a lot of very biased statistics reported around bike related deaths.

Even with a lot of bike infrastructure, and a biking culture Denmark sees 17% of traffic related deaths by cyclists which is vastly more than their share of miles traveled.

Their are augments around health benefits. But, these fail to show up in the data as Denmark has ranks #17 in Europe significantly behind even United Kingdom with it's well known obesity problem. https://www.reinisfischer.com/life-expectancy-european-union...

PS: You need or look at all related risks combined not just select a few. One risk rarely considered, is heavy exercise in traffic is very bad for the lungs.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by btrettel on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @10:40PM (#16220120)
> One risk rarely considered, is heavy exercise in traffic is very bad for the lungs.

While I agree air pollution is worth considering, "very bad" sounds like hyperbole to me. Definitely not anywhere near smoking. The solutions also are rather simple: change your route to avoid heavy traffic and/or wear an air filter. I've done both before and recommend the latter more, as it seems more effective, does not make breathing harder, and has other safety benefits as well. Also consider the length of one's commute.

It's also worth noting that air pollution can easily be worse when driving. In fact, while I can not find the link now, I recall one non-scientific article with some experiments run by academics suggested that net exposure to air pollution was higher when driving in some cases.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by Retric on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @08:01PM (#16227869)
Look at the occupational risks for people working as toll collectors. Toll collectors now have positive-pressure HVAC systems due to long term health risks. https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/investigations/toll_...

Exercise increases the amount of lung exposure to particulate matter per unit time.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by emj on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @04:07AM (#16221374)
> You need or look at all related risks

You are right that traffic pollution is very bad for the lungs, it's actually the cause of 30%-60% of all deaths related to lung diseases, but this is true for everyone not just cyclists. It's the same number of deaths as for sucides but with an inverse demographics graph of course, at least in Sweden. Those numbers are staggering and the solution to that is not to stop bicyclists navigating normal commute traffic.

I would like to say that I do look at the combined risks: There are atleast two longitudinal studies on Dutch and Danish bicyclists that show that using bicycling as an active mode of transport means longer life, basically it's an integration test were you get X% increase in a population by just commuting daily.

Here is some commedy that is obvisouly just Norwegians and Swedes being jealous, but it gives you some view on how we think of Danes, and what might affect their lives a bit more than bicycling, as with your link they are very interesting but irrelevant since they do not affect the same population groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJBtV_S8c1c

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by Retric on Wednesday January 24, 2018 @08:05PM (#16227903)
> this is true for everyone not just cyclists

Exercise increases the amount of lung exposure to particulate matter per unit time. Biking is also a slower mode of transit which increases risks, further cars have built in air filters which further reduce risks.

So it's really not equivalent. On the upside, bike paths need not be next to traffic and in those cases may reduce exposure.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by emj on Sunday January 28, 2018 @05:27AM (#16250696)
I do not disagree with the dangers of air pollution it's just that if you look at large populations of bicyclists there are no significant elevation of risk compared to other populations in this regard.

The solution is not to scare people with baseless arguments.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by btrettel on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @05:05PM (#16218222)
I hope you don't take this the wrong way. My goal is to convince drivers that cyclists are not as bad as they think they are and that they should drive safer.

> You only see cases where they lose that bet, but it's just a numbers game.

I don't follow. Seeing both is pretty easy; they drive away. What I question is that the 2 minutes that one saves at most (likely closer to 15 seconds or so on average) is worth the extra risk to other road users. The asymmetry is the problem. You say cyclists regularly risk death, and sure, they do, though the risk is probably lower than you suspect, and drivers risk death too. A large fraction of cyclist deaths occur late at night with a drunk cyclist; remove those factors and your risk is a lot lower. For someone like me who goes out of my way to ride safely, my main (perhaps only) risk on the road is bad drivers, who are by large tolerated or encouraged by western society.

> As to speeding, we have actual data on this stuff. So it's easy to demonstrate the risks are very low directly from accident rates vs # of speeders.

The NTSB says speeding contributes to about 10,000 fatalities per year in the US:

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2017-DCA15SS002.aspx

Doesn't sound low to me. Maybe it seems low when you compare against how frequently people speed, but that's a red herring as far as I'm concerned. It's unlikely you'll die while smoking any particular cigarette, but clearly the net effects of smoking at significant. I focus on the net effects. I don't think the time the speeders save justifies the life lost, even neglecting those disabled, etc. As I said, I think speeding provides mostly psychological benefit.

> As to personal data I only have ~45,000 cyclists which may be high or low. But it feels like a very large number.

You have seen about 45,000 individual cyclists on the road? I find that hard to believe. That's comparable to the total number of transportation cyclists in Austin. For comparison, I suspect I've seen at least several thousand individual cyclists on the road. If I see only two new cyclists on the road per day I'll see about 7000 after 10 years. Seems reasonable to me.

Re:Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation sys... by emj on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @07:00PM (#16219106)
> A large fraction of cyclist deaths occur late at night with a drunk cyclist

In single accident deaths at night with only a cyclist this is actually the most common case (70%-90%). In deadly accidents between car and bicycle it's not very common for the cyclist to be drunk about the same as always.