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Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by vlovich123 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:18AM (#16211882)
For the most part he actually does a good job staying away from personal attacks. The problem is that his approach isn't going to yield great results. For there's 2 problematic parts to this e-mail.

The first is the personal attack when he calls Intel engineers morons. That 1 little unnecessary addon is uncalled for because it's quite reasonable that there's a lot of politics going on at Intel that's interfering with the engineering work. Could be that the next chip they're taping out can't be fixed properly without delaying & impacting revenue in a way that execs won't allow. Could be that there's legal reasons whereby Intel's "fix" is desirable from a management perspective to continue their denial of a problem with their chips to win or reduce the costs of the class actions. Or it could be any number of a hundred other reasons that the public isn't privy to.

The second, & this is pure speculation on my part that this didn't happen, is that he should have followed this in an offline discussion with the engineer. This public shaming doesn't do any good & just entrenches the frontline representatives of Intel to be antagonistic with Linus rather than to be his allies. I feel like if Linus wanted to be truly effective here in impacting Intel's direction (especially given their constant need to minimize the scale & scope of this problem) he could have followed up with the engineer off-list & gone "your explanation doesn't make any sense. can you clue me in on what's the motivation behind this approach?". It saves the engineer public embarrassment, it gets him an ally within Intel & it lets him have strategic information on what is motivating Intel engineers (consider - did his finger to nVidia in any way improve relations between Linux & nVidia?). Now if he did that & the answer still wasn't OK then he's free to use his bully pulpit as he wishes, but I suspect it was just instinctive & a build up of his frustration with Intel's handling of this whole matter.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by enriquto on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @03:42AM (#16211975)
The first is the personal attack when he calls Intel engineers morons. That 1 little unnecessary addon is uncalled for because it's quite reasonable that there's a lot of politics going on (...) can't be fixed properly without delaying & impacting revenue in a way that execs won't allow.

If that is really the case, then calling the engineers morons is actually very much called for!

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by vlovich123 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:24AM (#16212126)
Note this is a hypothetical since it's quite possible it's not the case, in which case even by your logic the moron label is incorrect. So in your opinion engineers are unintelligent because they listen to the demands of people who can fire them or perhaps, god forbid, they're trying to balance technical solutions against revenue? That seems perfectly rational reasoning to me but that must be because I too am a moron.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by jedharris on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @01:13PM (#16215770)
Very reasonable objection. So the engineers should be called "moral morons" or "ethical morons" because they are willing to follow instructions that stick Intel customers with terrible security problems, to help Intel shore up their share price.

Maybe Linus is being deliberately ambiguous about the type of moron he means.

Is this better?

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by vlovich123 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @01:58PM (#16216289)
Or maybe read the thread beyond Linus' rant. You'll get a better appreciation for the context. My impression is that Linus probably just misunderstood what the context/purpose of the patch & he's frustrated by the whole process & venting (which is fine). One thing Linus chiming in did accomplish is that the Intel engineers did a much job better explaining the motivation for the patch. To be fair it would have probably helped if the Intel engineers called it out up-front & explained why that patch is there (although maybe they did - I didn't read too much of it). They explain they knew it would prompt some volatile discussion & was the one they weren't happy about (not that anyone is happy about these flaws) so they made it last so nothing else would depend on it. Once the context was explained other Linux engineers chimed in with a cleaner way to accomplish it. All of these are senior Intel SW engineers and AFAICT they seem extremely competent not just on the Linux part of it but also in terms of understanding all the security implications on the Intel chips (these are easy to hand-wave explain & very hard to fully understand & fix).

All these engineers are in impossible situations trying to fix years of chips while at the same time providing a path forward for chips without these issues. You can call them morons all you want but from the little bit I've read I'm very impressed with their professionalism & knowledge and 100% do not want to be in their shoes right now.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by heavenlyblue on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @07:03AM (#16212882)
Stop rattling about definitions.

If you had been working in a company that had been stopping you from doing your job then by definition the projection of the results of your work is "the results of my work show that I am a moron".

If you took the brightest person on earth and stopped him from communicating would that still make him "the brightest but unable to share" or would that make him "an idiot who has never learnt how to communcate his opinion"?

I am pretty sure you would pick different names for the same person depending on the situation, especially when it's more complex than a toilet conversation.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by rjzzleep on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @08:00AM (#16213204)
It's kind of weird you spin it that way. I've seen all sorts of places and in general people at them bottom eventually stop communicating because people in the middle don't want to hear it. Just now I came out of a small session commemorating the death of a fellow engineer in his late 40s. His problem? Obesity combined with caring too much about things.

That's in fact the big summary of it all. Some people actually have families to take care of. Losing your job for most people is not an option. I personally don't care calling out bullshit, but I also don't have a wife and 3 kids. By that logic losing the job is the stupid option.

I guarantee you that both at intel and at VW people called out the crap from management, were threatened and then decided they don't care enough to risk their livelihoods.

Calling intel stupid is imho entirely justified, but your logic to me sounds weird.

That... or completely misunderstand it...

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by hartator on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @05:14AM (#16212334)
It’s not hypotycal, it’s the part of hardware that made Intel CPU vulnerable to last week attack. Linus was right.
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by vlovich123 on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @01:45PM (#16216149)
I highly recommend reading the rest of the thread beyond just Linus' complaint. This isn't about Meltdown but Spectre which impacts all CPUs with speculative execution. I believe these patches apply to AMD too even though Intel engineers are posting them as they appear to be generic x86 code. Not only is David brilliant at defusing that situation, he provides quite a bit of context to clarify confusion for external readers while correcting Linus' potential misunderstanding of the patch too. The "moronic" patch Linus is complaining about is to fix Skylake that still is impacted by a potential exploit even with the though the other less ugly fixes fix the majority of chips. David even agrees with the unfortunateness of the whole situation & says he's OK dropping that last patch if Linus wants because the Skylake vulnerability is less clearly exploitable. Ingo provides a follow-up suggestion about a potentially cleaner & simpler way to fix just the Skylake issue which is great & the whole point of how RFCs are supposed to work. So not only does it look like Linus' may have overreacted, it didn't even move the conversation along in any way (angry responses rarely seem to).
Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by Izkata on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @07:31PM (#16219293)
> it didn't even move the conversation along in any way (angry responses rarely seem to).

From your other comment [0] it sounds like it worked perfectly. The angry response first got the Intel engineer to defend their work and explain it better than they originally had, then further got others interested enough to improve it.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16216289

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by mmjaa on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @04:32AM (#16212156)
>The problem is that his approach isn't going to yield great results.

Its worked so far.

Re:Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for... by nnq on Tuesday January 23, 2018 @11:23AM (#16214742)
> did his finger to nVidia in any way improve relations between Linux & nVidia

Purely anecdotal evidence, but in my experience the few pieces of hardware that I can generally bet they'll be fine with Linux are those branded Intel or NVidia (one may argue about the "optimus" thing, but if you want CUDA on a Linux laptop, nvidia's drivers do their job fine in the end, and this is what most Linux users will care about I guess)

Dunno the mechanics of it, but some things did work up just right about this :)