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Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by sytelus on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @09:32PM (#16112128)
The catchiest (and wrong) assertion is this:

"even for highly technical aspects like deep learning, fast.ai has shown that people with 1-year of coding experience can become world-class deep learning practitioners"

Yes, any Joe can train deep network with dozen lines of Keras. Sure, your startup can use off-the self models and tweak it a bit... That doesn't make you "world-class deep learning practitioner". If you are designing the network for new problem domain, there are thousands of decisions to make - everything from hyperparameters to network architecture to distributions in data. Making these decisions without having developed lots of intuition and good foundations is very hard. I often find usual developers without ML background and experience completely lost in these cases. Debugging a model that doesn't work is super hard. There are no IDEs, no breakpoints, no watches and in fact not even error messages. Its purely statistical debugging and probabilistic fixes.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by delhanty on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @11:11PM (#16112498)
>Startups are (by necessity) filled with generalists; big companies are filled with specialists. People underestimate how effective a generalist can be at things which are done by specialists. People underestimate how deep specialties can run. These are simultaneously true. [0]

For Google etc. it probably makes sense to pay top dollar for lots of ML PhDs (specialists).

A startup looking for opportunities engendered by ML is better off with a smart generalist. E.g. Dawson Whitfield of Logojoy was a designer. [1]

[0] https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936628610474983424?lang=e...

[1] https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/038-dawson-whitfield-of...

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by nunez on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @08:39AM (#16114797)
Yes, because at their scale and revenue, it makes sense to start pumping out your own research. Some PhD theses do eventually become competitive advantages (Paxos comes to mind), and nothing is better than being able to work on your “thesis” with a nice paycheck and without the threat of “publish or perish.”
Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by joshvm on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @09:59PM (#16112253)
World class is subjective. The term here is practitioner and the simple answer is yes: you will be world class because so few people can do it. World class researcher? No.

Reading HN and following key people gives you the impression that this is an incredibly popular field - it is. In reality, though, it's a small field and lots of companies still don't use it, intend to use it, or have any idea how to use it. Alexnet was only 5 years ago. Faster-RCNN was only 2 years ago. Compared to, say, all programmers, statistically nobody is doing this.

Debugging a model is hard, but it's unlikely your efforts will be significantly more or less productive than a leading researcher aside from obvious things like noticing that the learning rate is too high or low. There's so much hand waving, even in top papers, that mostly we've tried stuff that looked like a good idea, and it turned out to be correct.

The thing is that a lot deep learning tasks don't require a fancy model. You can take VGG/Inception/ResNet and bodge them to fit a lot of real-world scenarios. Then the problems are mostly solved by standard machine learning intuition - making sure you have an appropriate train/test/validation set, a good loss function, etc.

Edit -

Here's an example: Halcon, a popular commercial image processing library has recently included a deep learning package due to repeated customer demand. It's not out yet, but it's most likely just going to be a wrapper for train/test using a basic image classification or object detection network. That's what the market wants. They don't care about GANs, they want something which will tell them if the image represents a valid product during QA 99% of the time (and often QA failures are pretty obvious - e.g. big crack in a bottle, or a deformed label).

You could build that kind of model with very little expertise and you'd beat most of the available image processing packages easily, with practically no work. The point is that an off-the-shelf model trained on company-specific data is likely to be state of the art on that problem (because who else has the dataset?) You don't care about 1000 classes in Imagenet, you want good product/bad product.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by polkapolka on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @11:56PM (#16112657)
If you spend one year on applying deep learning, you can train a net on a 100 different data sets. That's where the intuition comes from. You'll debug a lot. People with zero experience with deep learning have ended in the top 10 for Kaggle computer vision competitions. Applied ML does not require a PhD in Computer Science. It is not like you are debugging Cuda as was the case a few years back. Even then, a PhD in statistics is unlikely to help with that. Really, one year of Python experience and you are good to go.

How rare is it to find a new problem domain these days? Most if not all problems tackled with deep learning have already been done in one form or the other. Deep learning is not yet much of an academic discipline, but accessible to anyone willing to put in the hours of study and practice.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by nostrademons on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @02:02AM (#16113039)
"How rare is it to find a new problem domain these days? Most if not all problems tackled with deep learning have already been done in one form or the other."

Curious if anyone's done this: deep learning on DOM trees, to recognize portions of HTML pages. This has elements in common with both CNNs (where you want surrounding context - parents, ancestors, siblings, and descendants - to influence the recognition of a particular DOM element) and with RNNs (because elements may have an unbounded number of children, and potentially a recurring substructure), but I don't know offhand how you would combine them to solve the problem.

Anyone working on this? A quick literature search turned up nothing.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by bolololo1 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @04:09AM (#16113503)
Unsupervised learning to recognize patterns?

Seems like a really interesting idea to work on.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by matte_black on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @09:50PM (#16112211)
Still, it's nothing unlearnable. You read a couple good books and blogs, do some experiments, and you're about 80% of the way there.
Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by sytelus on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @09:56PM (#16112239)
Nothing is unlearnable - it's never question of "if it can be done" but question of "how much effort is needed". Read few blogs, books and take Coursera classes etc are all good but the real thing is working on multiple real and new problems. Anyone who has read books/blogs etc, give them a new problem, for example, predicting pedestrian intent for crossing a road from set of video frames. See how far they get.
Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by matte_black on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @10:35PM (#16112376)
So are you saying there are no best practices or patterns that are discovered over time that allows newcomers to progress in the field faster than the early pioneers?
Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by figgis on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @01:53AM (#16113017)
No. He's implying that reading books doesn't equate to being able to put that knowledge to practice.

While I don't entirely agree with this assumption, if you are in business it's probably a "safer" assumption to make.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by ViktorV on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @12:47PM (#16117090)
Sorry to be that guy but this kind of "elitism" seriously bothers me. I've seen this thing in almost all of the fields related to CS like "you have to spend 16 hours a day for 10 years to understand assembly" when I know a guy who became a malware expert in 4 years ( winning world class tournaments with his team ). This thing is very discouraging, and it is false. You stated a problem which is hard to solve, but 99% of problems are not like this. Like: - tell what kind of mineral deficiency a plant has? - what kind of bug do you see? - what kind of plant do you see? - is this thing broken ( MRI or X ray )? - what kind of musical notes are in a waveform?

See how far they get. A talented guy can solve these within one year.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by Spooky23 on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @10:37PM (#16112384)
If you do a decent job at that problem once, you’re easily in the top 25% of people who claim domain knowledge.

Many businesses have problems that an off the rack solution substantially solves it.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by jo909 on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @05:23AM (#16113872)
I read that in the sense that you don't need very many ("a bunch") of PhDs in a small company. That does not imply that one or a few people of that background might not be useful.

If AI is an integral part of my startup I would prefer to have someone with adequate experience in the founding team or very early hire.

90% of the work might not be super deep fundamental design decisions or debugging.

Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by appedus on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @11:27PM (#16112558)
True that.
Re:Trends to Avoid When Founding a Startup by user5994461 on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @11:29PM (#16112569)
"1-year of coding experience" for a startup means someone who got a PhD and interned for 4 years at various companies doing real work, then went to work for Google for 1 year and decided to leave for a smaller company.

Yes, that guy can become a world class practitioner.

He was talked down to junior and paid as little as possible because that's what companies do.