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Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by DougN7 on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:07PM (#16100583)
That's a really great insight. The fact that such good intentions often lead to bigger problems is what concerns me about UBI - it will surely have huge second-order effects. I'm not sure what they will be, but rent control in a city is tiny compared to the effect a universal change like UBI would introduce.
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by jules on Monday January 08, 2018 @05:18PM (#16101268)
In an ideal world you'd run the experiment and see how it goes. In the real world you'll probably be stuck with it regardless of the outcome, because there will be a concentrated group who will be strongly against ending it, whereas the negative consequences will be diffuse.

That rent control is bad is not exactly a new finding. This has been known to economists across the political spectrum for decades.

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by joejerryronnie on Monday January 08, 2018 @07:44PM (#16102444)
One second-order effect of true UBI would be to inflate the cost of goods to the level of UBI, thus rendering UBI pointless.
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by taneq on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @12:03AM (#16103763)
The price of basic necessities is limited by the cost of production, not some fundamental scarcity. We could produce as much food, clothing etc. as anyone could want without increasing the cost. (In fact, the cost should decrease slightly due to economies of scale.)
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by taysic on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @04:09AM (#16104669)
If UBI truly is basic income that is livable then labor costs will go up, and thus production costs go up.
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by aninhumer on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @05:10AM (#16104938)
It's not that simple though. On the one hand, UBI will make people less willing to accept work, but on the other hand it will also make them able to have a higher quality of life with a lower wage.

If someone is currently on $25k and gets a $10k basic income, their employer can lower their salary to $20k and they'll still be getting $5k more than they were before. (This won't happen immediately because people will be reluctant to take pay cuts, but I think it will in the longer term.)

Exactly how much of this difference the employee and employer capture in the longer term is a concern, but I think giving people the option to quit without starving will go a long way towards empowering them to insist on fair pay. I also think a result would be an increase job quality, because I think a lot of people would take a pay cut to work somewhere less awful if they could afford it.

Of course that money comes from taxes, so there's still a cost somewhere, but I'm not as convinced progressive taxes on the wealthy will have quite as big an impact on the costs to produce basic goods.

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by joejerryronnie on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @12:14AM (#16103798)
The price of basic necessities is based on what people will pay for it (or what merchants can charge for it). If everyone has $10 today to buy groceries and all of a sudden, tomorrow everyone has $100 to buy groceries, what do you think is going to happen to the price of groceries?
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by taneq on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @03:26AM (#16104477)
Nothing much in the long run, competition between supermarkets is pretty cutthroat and it should level out not too far from where it is now.
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by taysic on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @04:10AM (#16104678)
If UBI is paid for with inflation than prices will go up to capture an equivalent in value. If UBI is paid for by increased taxes then all businesses will need to raise prices.
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by mdpopescu on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @02:14AM (#16104224)
price = f(cost) is incorrect cost = f(price) is correct

This is basic economics. (Seriously, this is in the easy stuff like Hazlitt.)

For an example, see joe's response.

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by taneq on Tuesday January 09, 2018 @03:19AM (#16104451)
Just to check that I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the cost of producing a product is a function of its sell price?
Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by mdpopescu on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @01:33PM (#16117550)
Yes. Costs are determined by the sale price, not the other way around. For example, if the sale price of a product increases, the demand for its components raises, which raises their cost.

If a would-be producer cannot source materials that would cost him less than the sale price, he just won't build the product.

[1] has more details on the subject.

[1] https://mises.org/library/whats-cost-got-do-it-0

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by knodi123 on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:24PM (#16100736)
> UBI - it will surely have huge second-order effects

I absolutely agree, and I think these justifiable and yet ill-defined concerns are shared by a lot of UBI opponents.

I just hope anyone trying to come to an informed decision remembers to include unrestrained capitalism's second-order effects on the pro/con list.

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by CryptoPunk on Monday January 08, 2018 @05:56PM (#16101648)
>>unrestrained capitalism

It sounds scary when put like that but it just means people free to interact, while secure from other social actors in their person and property. By the nature of voluntary configuration, interactions have a tendency toward being mutually beneficial, and there are corrective feedback loops that naturally exist in a voluntary society to reduce those that aren't (e.g. scammy operators increasingly excluded by increasing consumer vigilance and growing reputation markets).

And you can still have governments provisioning economic resources that qualify as public goods, like basic research, public information resources, policing and national defense, in such a setting, so there is no fundamental deficiency in unrestrained capitalism, aka an absolute free market.

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by knodi123 on Monday January 08, 2018 @06:16PM (#16101828)
> so there is no fundamental deficiency in unrestrained capitalism

Except a tendency toward consolidation and monopolies. And, inherent in the word "unrestrained", a tendency to use corporate money to unduly influence politics to benefit the corporation at the expense of the public interest.

> it just means people free to interact, while secure from other social actors in their person and property

It's kind of irrelevant anyway, all I really meant was UBI should be evaluated in comparison to "the status quo", whatever you choose to label it.

Re:Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of ho... by CryptoPunk on Monday January 08, 2018 @06:30PM (#16101953)
>>Except a tendency toward consolidation and monopolies.

That assumes no government provisioning of public goods that can counteract capture of natural monopolies, but there's nothing inherent to a free market to prevent such government intervention.

>>And, inherent in the word "unrestrained", a tendency to use corporate money to unduly influence politics to benefit the corporation at the expense of the public interest.

The term here is "unrestrained capitalism", meaning people in possession of their right to contract and secure in their person/property, not "unrestrained society". An absolute free market doesn't mean anarchy. It doesn't preclude checks within the electoral and political process itself to prevent corruption. It doesn't prevent laws from being passed to place restrictions on those in public office, like, to give an extreme example, a lifetime ban on receiving any compensation from the private sector.

>>It's kind of irrelevant anyway, all I really meant was UBI should be evaluated in comparison to "the status quo"

Fair enough. I just take issue with the connotations of "unrestrained capitalism", where it implies malevolent behavior is legalized. A less biased term would be "free market".