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Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by pas on Saturday January 06, 2018 @08:54PM (#16088626)
> a whole set of other problems when actually executed

And those are at least as worthy of direct attention and some solution.

If someone cannot handle themselves, maybe they shouldn't be given a subsidized unit in a fancy expensive city, but maybe society should help them by maximizing the help they get, and that is probably somewhere where simply being costs almost nothing, and where employing caretakers wouldn't cost two arms and a leg per hour, and so on. (And of course this doesn't mean ship all the addicts to Alaska/Wyoming.)

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by Clubber on Saturday January 06, 2018 @09:27PM (#16088744)
>If someone cannot handle themselves, maybe they shouldn't be given a subsidized unit in a fancy expensive city

If you think about it in another angle, the governments aren't subsidizing to help the tenants as much as they are subsidizing the companies that have to hire people at not executive or programmer wages.

I mean you might get a few people who are willing to commute 4 hours a day, but certainly not enough to satisfy SV's needs. I doubt a company would pay their janitorial staff enough to live there without being forced.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by Retric on Saturday January 06, 2018 @10:36PM (#16088988)
What normally happens is rather than paying significantly more, you get people willing to live at the margins and take those jobs.

Think people in Tokyo living in "cages". It starts as people renting a 2 BR apartment putting two sets of bunk beds in each room and now you have 8 young wokers playing ~1/5 of a 1br price for the area. But, now you add bunk beds to the living room, or beyond that people hot bunk so someone in the night shift sleeps during the day etc. However, this tends to unsanitary conditions and adds externalities.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by Johnny555 on Saturday January 06, 2018 @11:35PM (#16089189)
The difference though is that Japan builds a lot of housing, so you can still find a 1LDK (1 bedroom equivalent) apartment for under $1500 USD in Tokyo. (and of course, being Tokyo,you can pay much more).

It will be smaller than a typical American apartment but at least you won't be sharing with roommates.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by bostonscott on Saturday January 06, 2018 @10:15PM (#16088913)
"I mean you might get a few people who are willing to commute 4 hours a day, but certainly not enough to satisfy SV's needs. I doubt a company would pay their janitorial staff enough to live there without being forced."

Of course they would if they had to --- supply and demand. Do you really think companies would not find a way to solve the "my office is a pig sty" problem?

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by Clubber on Saturday January 06, 2018 @11:07PM (#16089087)
Paying living wages for that area is probably the last thing they would consider, after all else failed, including petitioning government.
Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by linkregister on Sunday January 07, 2018 @12:40AM (#16089445)
Isn’t the minimum wage in SF $15/hr?

Even if it were $100/hr that still doesn’t mean the housing supply would be adequate for the demand.

The only short-term solution that would give sufficient housing supply to the Bay Area would be a massive loss of jobs.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by Clubber on Sunday January 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#16091250)
Or smart relocation. Does the marketing department really need to be in the same building as the accounting department, etc?

Either way, SF is having the issue they are having because SV had the exact same problem 20 years ago. Everyone knew this was going to happen.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by pas on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:26PM (#16100121)
You probably misunderstood my comment.

I think buildings with both subsidized and market rate units are a great idea. (Segregated subsidized buildings seem to be strictly worse.) But as others mentioned subsidized can mean either "low wage normal folks" or "hardcore bath salts addics living on tree bark with 10 dogs and sold the bathtube for drugs years ago, so they smell worse than their dogs". And they need different kind of help. The former can probably be perfectly happy with their current job thanks to the rent subsidy, whereas the latter category is very likely actively harmful to the community and needs serious (expensive) intervention.

Of course we can debate the problem of injecting even more money into a market with already limited supply, and its fairness.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by theoh on Saturday January 06, 2018 @09:57PM (#16088843)
> If someone cannot handle themselves, maybe they shouldn't be given a subsidized unit in a fancy expensive city

You need to solve the problem with your plan where the person who gets labelled "cannot handle themselves" is diverted into an isolated setting with much less stimulation/opportunity. You did say you weren't proposing to "ship" "addicts" to Alaska/Wyoming but there's a much higher level of responsibility than that -- you mustn't write them off / throw them on the scrap heap / set them up for an isolated dependent life by your own standards. It could be you one day.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by tristor on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:35AM (#16089613)
> “It could be you one day.”

Why? Barring someone forcibly injecting me with opiates repeatedly or the same with crack, it is beyond unlikely I will ever become addicted to either substance. I don’t think addicts are “bad people”, but once they’ve hit a certain point their physical desire for drugs overwhelms their ability to be present in polite society.

People should be treated with respect and humanity, but they also should not be given a free pass to do anything without consequence. If you’re shitting in the elevator or passing out with a needle in your arm in the restroom in the building it presents a clear problem with the plan of mixing luxury housing with subsidized housing.

I will never be in that situation because I won’t allow myself to be in that situation. I might become poor, I might need to rely on subsidized housing, but I will never be “someone who can not handle themselves” as the GP referenced.

I get that you’re trying to evoke empathy, but there’s a sea of difference in behavior and capability of accepting social norms between your average mentally ill substance abuser and your average poorer person who can’t afford housing. These situations are not the same and there does need to be a filter to ensure that the working poor do get affordable housing without reducing them to having to live alongside “people who can’t handle themselves”.

It’s not a nice thing to realize, but it’s the hard truth. We, if anything, should start providing state run mental facilities for long-term patients again. There are a lot of people who through circumstance or birth simply are not capable of coexisting with polite society.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by slg on Sunday January 07, 2018 @02:02AM (#16089684)
You are making a lot of assumptions about people in that situation. There are plenty of addicts who developed an addiction to opioids without ever taking an illegal substance. Maybe they are prescribed a pain killer after getting into a car accident and that eventually leads to oxycontin which leads to a heroine. Or maybe they experience some traumatic incident that leaves them with PTSD which interferes with their daily life and leads to drug use. No one can guarantee that neither of those situations will ever happen to them.
Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by manicdee on Sunday January 07, 2018 @06:35PM (#16093446)
> I will never be in that situation because I won’t allow myself to be in that situation.

How do you intend to accomplish that? Remember we live in a world where people have accidents with cars, guns, and preparation of prescription medicines. You do not control everyone else, yet everyone else has the potential to alter your lifestyle in a few moments of recklessness or distraction.

Force majeur exists in contract law for a reason.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by tristor on Thursday January 18, 2018 @01:53PM (#16180105)
> How do you intend to accomplish that?

Accomplishing this is simple, but not necessarily easy. You make a choice.

As I mentioned, literally barring someone physically overpowering me and forcibly injecting me with addictive drugs, I will never be a drug addict because I simply refuse to take addictive drugs. Yes, that includes painkillers that may be prescribed. I took none of the hydrocodone tablets I was prescribed after my wisdom teeth extraction. I'm currently using non-pharmaceutical approaches to managing chronic back pain from an injury rather than relying on opiate painkillers which doctors are happy to prescribe.

I am not blaming people for their choices, but I am recognizing that externalities that feed into our choices don't excuse the outcomes.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by pas on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:35PM (#16100830)
Were I an addict, I would very much wish someone would treat my addiction instead of enabling it by financially supporting me.

Currently substance abuse is either actively criminalized with enormous costs to humanity (probably millions dead due to the various criminal organizations participating in the trade of prohibited substances) or at best relegated to intervention reality shows.

Furthermore, treatment of most mental illnesses are very superficial nowadays, we have a few volunteer/charitable organizations acting as support systems, but mainly it's pills and some expensive counseling and you're good to go, right back into your old environment, old social circles, old habits, old context.

I'm not saying it should be state mandated, but it could be a lot more state supported.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by 35bge57dtjku on Sunday January 07, 2018 @12:36AM (#16089424)
> you mustn't write them off... It could be you one day.

It's a little discomforting how few people seem to care about that.

Re:Why Is 'Affordable' Housing So Expensive to Build? by racer-v on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:58PM (#16092047)
diverted into an isolated setting with much less stimulation/opportunity.

Opportunity is relative. By giving it to one person, you're taking it away from another.