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Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by misnome on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @05:45AM (#16059966)
> when some malware does manage to slip an evil kernel extension past a user and is rewarded with the protection of SIP, neither the user nor any anti-malware tool will be able to remove that extension, unless the user restarts from a different boot volume, or KernelExtensionManagement allows it.

But isn't that scenario "Game Over" anyway? At least installing kernel extensions is a process that is explicit and - importantly - not just another 'trained to ignore' permissions dialog. The alternative would be to prevent the user from ever installing kernel extensions unless they turn off security, and then you are back to square one. At least this way, authorised kernel extensions are taken under protection and not just left lying around for potential modification?

My main frustruation with SIP has been with environment variables starting with LD and DYLD being silently swallowed e.g. `DYLD_SOMETHING_SOMETHING=a env | grep DYLD` gives no output. So if you want to use these variables, or have existing scripts that do, you have to know what the command you are launching is - if it's an executable bash script, then the variables will never make it in.

SIP isn't perfect, and can be frustrating, but it certainly raises the bar for compromising a whole system.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by codegladiator on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:55AM (#16060242)
> not just another 'trained to ignore' permissions dialog.

I have never seen any user reading a dialog message if it has a button with label "ok", "cancel", "allow" or "next". Including a lot of developers/dev-ops.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by pilif on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:01AM (#16060603)
The dialog for kernel extension doesn't contain any of those labels though. Instead it offers you to open the "Security" preference pane where some additional UI will be displayed.

If you blindly click buttons you will not accidentally enable a kernel extension.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by mintplant on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:19PM (#16063479)
I have barely any experience with macOS, but could an application perform those steps on a user's behalf if it were granted Accessibility access?
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by sp00ls on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:25PM (#16064180)
Every app I've installed that wants accessibility access follows the same steps from the comment you replied to. You must explicitly unlock that pane with your password after clicking the lock and then enable the app to have accessibility access.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by dunham on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:12PM (#16066379)
It's also possible to detect input events from accessibility. Little Snitch detects and ignores those events (tested via "Synergy" - a keyboard/mouse sharing application), as does the download icon that appears in the upper right corner of iBooks (I don't know why).

The accessibility preferences panel appears to accept those synthetic events, however.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by inetknght on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:01AM (#16061472)
> If you blindly click buttons you will not accidentally enable a kernel extension.

As someone who's gone poking around system internals for twenty-plus years... I can tell you that you're very wrong here. I've forgotten about more completely broken operating systems than I care to discuss, but many of them have ended with me poking around and blindly clicking buttons in a vain hope of getting the OS to do what I want it to do which is apparently frequently different from whatever OS producers want me to do.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by 1123581321 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:28AM (#16061736)
You may want to use the workflow yourself to see how it differs and re-evaluate. It surprised me.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by virgilp on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:07AM (#16060312)
This seems a bit hyperbolic. I do, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people do - especially developers; and especially dialogs that you didn't explicitly expect.

Not saying that the majority do; or that a dialog is "good security protection". I just don't think it's as useless as you seem to imply.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by acdha on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:14AM (#16060346)
It’s exaggerated but only slightly. Some of the worst messes I’ve seen were people who should have known better just blindly pasting google search results because they didn’t have time to do it right.

More developers than sysadmins but definitely not exclusively so. Never underestimate the degree to which people are rushing or not questioning whether their initial diagnosis was correct.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by wernercd on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:23AM (#16062273)
I would add that these kinds of "Normal users click accept/next" are how "offers" on software gets installed.

Case in point: uTorrent. Download and "install". You will, generally, get 2 screens that install junk. On one screen you can click "Decline". On another, you can click "Skip". These screens are between all the normal "which folder", "do you accept" and "thank you" screens.

Case in point: Adobe Reader... download it from their website WITHOUT unchecking the "Optional Offers". You then have a Reader with Benefits.

I consider myself "trained" and "knowledgeable" and I occasionally get bit by these... sidecars... included with desired software.

I have no faith that 95% of people know how to sidestep these "landmines". Decline? that means "don't install". Skip? Why would I skip an important part of the installation.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by virgilp on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:10PM (#16062752)
The problem with most of your examples is that either they're not dialogs ("unclick optional offers"), or they are expected dialogs (you expect during installation dialogs that ask you this-and-that, and you knowingly triggered the installation, so you mistakenly/casually click the wrong button). They are dark patterns, that first train you to click "next-next-next" then present you with an "offer" where you're also expected to click "next".

The system security dialogs like the "permissions" dialogs are not like that - I even read the Android permissions dialog (though I realize most people don't, I still think a sizeable chunk of people do, and thus I considered the original claim - that nobody does, not even developers/dev-ops - to be hyperbolic).

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by beamatronic on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @12:02PM (#16062685)
What about the High Sierra notification itself? The only options are "install" and "details"
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by Pxtl on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @11:45AM (#16062533)
I've been burned enough by bad installers that I go to ninite for any software like that.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by Consultant32452 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:32PM (#16065390)
If 1% of the population reads even half of their dialog boxes I'd be amazed.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by Feniks on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:30PM (#16064768)
"trained to ignore' permissions dialog."

Apple users terrify me.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by dpkonofa on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:22PM (#16065302)
You say this as if every single Windows user in the history of Windows doesn't just click every dialog box that says "OK" or immediately dismiss the UAC boxes that come up when something needs Admin access on Windows 7 and above. On Macs, at least, you have to enter the user's password to do anything damaging.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by reificator on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:34PM (#16065415)
Watch the average user do something similar with the Windows UAC popup. At least Apple requires a sudoers password for most of theirs.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by felipelemos on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:42AM (#16060189)
You can not trust the user. Never.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by blowski on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @07:25AM (#16060400)
How does that work in parallel with "It's my device, I'll do what I want with it"?
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by pas on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:29AM (#16061200)
Ask the user what kind of device it wants. (And then when the user says give me the developer hyper bleeding edge pro X, because my mom needs 4K cat videos, then maybe try to persuade the user that the regular non-devkit version would be the sane choice.)

And in the dev version protect the dev mode by some small ritual (like the 7-times tapping on About in Android).

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by Feniks on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @03:36PM (#16064834)
Oh man the hoops I had to jump through to get full admin control over windows 10. I understand the necessity of hiding power options but that was excessive.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:46AM (#16061905)
It doesn't.

We've had user-based permissions in the mainstream on personal devices ever since XP, and they have totally failed to protect us from anything. It is an utterly broken, worse than useless, backwards model of security for this class of device.

If you think I'm wrong, by all means tell me why instead of just downvoting like some reddit user. I'll happily provide you with a list of all the ransomware that didn't require even a single elevated permission to ruin someone's day.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by blowski on Thursday January 04, 2018 @06:00AM (#16069374)
From the guidelines:

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Better to provide that list without complaining about the downvotes. Even better would be suggesting how you would improve the system.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday January 04, 2018 @01:05PM (#16072497)
Even better would be if I just left this hellhole I think. The only difference between this place and the cesspool of reddit seems to be that people here think they're better than redditors while behaving exactly the same way.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by jsjohnst on Saturday January 06, 2018 @09:59PM (#16088853)
> Even better would be if I just left this hellhole I think.

If that’s what you think about it, then yeah, I agree you should, at least until you cool off anyway.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by eli on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:57AM (#16060965)
Make dangerous things hard to do, but not impossible
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by mantas on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:24AM (#16061692)
So someone could make a script simplifying them :)
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by snowwrestler on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @10:23AM (#16061680)
This is essentially the mindset of iOS, which I think most folks would agree is more secure than macOS. It's much easier to secure a device when you can take this for granted.

Unfortunately, a lot of people still use computers instead of iOS devices explicitly because they want more control and power over what the machine is doing. Security is a lot harder to do in this case.

Ultimately, you can't protect a machine from an empowered user. The best you can hope for is to provide guide rails that make it easier to do the right thing, and harder to do the wrong thing.

Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by carlosrg on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @09:30AM (#16061210)
I'm an user too and I'd like to be treated like an adult by my operating system.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by abritinthebay on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @01:18PM (#16063475)
You’re not the general case.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by throwaway2048 on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @06:33PM (#16066537)
Does that mean that he shouldn't care about his own experience? Maybe he should just watch American idol, listen to the top 20 pop hits and eat at McDonalds too, because obviously if he isn't in the majority, his opinion dosen't matter.
Re:The ‘app’ you can’t trash: how SIP is broken in High Sierra by abritinthebay on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @08:51PM (#16067332)
Good lord that was a hell of a leap of logic you just made. You must be tired after jumping to conclusions and attacking straw men.

Meanwhile, here in reality, the general case is what is design something for (you, btw, were describing lowest common denominator programming - a very different thing with a different, tho related, focus).

Understanding what niche you occupy is key to understanding what products and services are designed for you & which are not. Complaining that you are not catered to as a uncommon case in general purpose product is not only fruitless it’s also foolish.