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Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by dcosson on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @02:40PM (#16054809)
It seems like there's a couple of possible explanations for the continued dominance of bitcoin:

1. It's being mispriced by the market for some reason and will correct over time (i.e. it will lose valuation compared to other cryptos). This seems to have happened some in the past 2 weeks or so, but it's pretty early to see how this will play out.

2. The network effect of already being the biggest is strong enough to offset its "weaknesses" relative to other currencies.

3. The primary value of bitcoin, at least at present and in the short to medium term, is different than crypto enthusiasts believe. There is massive value in being a decentralized, secure, easily transferrable store of relatively large amounts of money, as basically a settlement layer. And there is relatively less value (at the current time) in being a new payment method to buy everything down to a cup of coffee, or powering smart contracts, or other things that crypto enthusiasts get excited about. To the extent that those things become important to the market, usage of Ethereum or other coins will increase. To the extent that privacy becomes important to the market, usage of ZCash or Monero or other coins will increase, etc. But the increases of these others won't necessarily reduce the primary value of Bitcoin itself.

I personally think #3 is true, although long-term factors like the energy consumption of mining may be strong enough to render other currencies significantly better even for this primary use case.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by realusername on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:10PM (#16055676)
> the continued dominance of bitcoin

It's less and less true as time goes by, Bitcoin dominance on the other currencies was about 85% in February, now it's only about 38%.

https://coinmarketcap.com/charts/#dominance-percentage

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by runeks on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:21PM (#16055782)
Only using the flawed measure of market cap, which decreases in accuracy with decreases in liquidity.

The problem with market cap is that it multiplies the last traded price with total supply, thereby assuming that there exists people willing to purchase all coins in existence at the same price (the mid price of the order book).

Thankfully, we don’t need to make this assumption, since the order books of most exchanges are public. But, as far as I’m aware, no websites compare coins by market depth, unfortunately.

It’s a bit like me selling a painting I’ve painted for $10,000, and then creating 100 of the same paintings and claiming I’m a millionaire. It doesn’t work like that for illiquid assets (I’d probably be lucky to find even a single new buyer at the same price).

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by realusername on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:35PM (#16055944)
It's indeed a flawed comparison but marketcap is still the best we have now. If you use other metrics to mesure popularity like the number of transactions, Bitcoin is already behind Etherum.
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by runeks on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:50PM (#16056067)
> It's indeed a flawed comparison but marketcap is still the best we have now.

I disagree. Many exchanges have public order books, so you can see exactly how much the price would slip if you sold, e.g., $1m worth of a coin. This is what is relevant for something functioning like money, not the last traded price multiplied by number of coins in existence.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by snark42 on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:13PM (#16056795)
> I disagree. Many exchanges have public order books, so you can see exactly how much the price would slip if you sold, e.g., $1m worth of a coin.

Yeah, but if you wanted to sell $1M worth of coins you'd probably use an auction at Gemini or elsewhere so you don't move through more than 2 or 3 price levels of the book.

You'd also probably enable some sort of smart selling algo for the same reason were you try and move $1M worth of BTC not at auction.

You could make the same argument for Gold or Platinum being over valued based on slippage from open interest at a point in time.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by runeks on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:45AM (#16059706)
> Yeah, but if you wanted to sell $1M worth of coins you'd probably use an auction at Gemini or elsewhere so you don't move through more than 2 or 3 price levels of the book.

Selling $1m worth of bitcoins on GDAX, Bitstamp and Bitfinex results in a slippage of 0.2864%, 0.3527%, and 0.2910%, respectively.

As far as I can gather from Gemini's fee schedule[1], they take a >0.40% fee even if you've traded for more than $10m in the past 30 days, so I'm not sure it's worth it for a $1m market sell.

[1] https://gemini.com/fee-schedule/#fee-schedule

> You could make the same argument for Gold or Platinum being over valued based on slippage from open interest at a point in time.

I disagree. I'm not arguing that anything is over-valued. Simply that market cap as a measure of value of commodities does not make sense, because of the great difference in marginal utility between them.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by realusername on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:22PM (#16056381)
Ah I see, I don't have a background in finance, how do you calculate that price slip?
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by runeks on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @04:57AM (#16059766)
You look at the public order books. So, for example, the order book for a particular exchange's BTCUSD market might contain the following buy orders (from various people who've deposited USD and wish to buy BTC):

    BUY 10 BTC @ 15,000 USD
    BUY 10 BTC @ 14,900 USD
    BUY 50 BTC @ 14,800 USD
If you sell 67.5 BTC into this market, you will sell the first 10 BTC for 15,000 USD each, the next 10 BTC for 14,900 USD each, and the remaining 47.5 BTC for 14,800 each, netting you a total of 150,000+149,000+703,000=1,002,000 USD. The average price would then be 1,002,000/67.5=14,844.4444, which means you would incur a slippage of (15,000-14,844.4444)/15,000=0.0103703733=~1% (which is the difference between your average selling price (14,844.4444) and the price of the first buy order that your sell order matched against (15,000)).
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by zerostar07 on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:01PM (#16056702)
i m interested in this as i m trying to use historical data to calculate something indicative of "real invested value". do you know if there are appropriate models ?
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by vasilipupkin on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:32PM (#16055911)
but you can look at trade volume, which is also a measure of liquidity. and trade volumes for some of these alt coins are high.
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by runeks on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:53PM (#16056093)
No, trading volume is not a measure of liquidity. It doesn’t matter how many times per second some coin — deposited at an exchange — changes owner (according to that exchange’s database) if selling $1m worth of the coin crashes the price to zero.

A trader can easily inflate volume by creating two accounts and trading back and forth with himself, thus making his two deposits count many times over in the trading volume of that exchange. But in the order book his deposits can only count once.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by 6nf on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @06:19PM (#16056838)
That trick costs a bunch of money in fees though. Volume is still a better measure than market cap. And If you don't like using the volume or market cap, what do you use?
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by runeks on Wednesday January 03, 2018 @02:12PM (#16064049)
> That trick costs a bunch of money in fees though.

Only if the exchange in question charges trading fees.

> And If you don't like using the volume or market cap, what do you use?

Market depth. Looking at the order book to see how much money is bidding on/being sold for bitcoins right now. See my reply to other comments for an elaboration.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by vasilipupkin on Thursday January 04, 2018 @10:29AM (#16071003)
market depth understates liquidity dramatically because a lot of liquidity is hidden / dark. Nobody is going to show a big order in a super volatile asset.
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by ThrustVectoring on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @03:25PM (#16055255)
The most important value of bitcoin is that transfers are non-repudiable. Any situation where sellers do not trust their buyers and have to eat the cost of things like credit-card chargebacks, there's a huge savings in accepting payments in a form that the buyer can't reverse.

Of course, the huge dark side to that is that there's now a way to easily send money in a way you cannot reverse. This provides a huge incentive for things like kidnappers demanding their ransom in bitcoin. It's often valuable to be physically incapable of doing things.

I'm long-run bearish on Bitcoin because of this analysis - the majority of its value is in something that makes governments and other coordination mechanisms interested in destroying it.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by dcosson on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:31PM (#16055907)
> There's a huge savings in accepting payments in a form that the buyer can't reverse.

Bitcoin just kind of flips the problem, it doesn't solve it. In a world where payments can easily be reversed, sellers take on all the risk. In a world where they can't be, buyers take all the risk.

You can get pretty far with a reputation system, and in a market with many more buyers than sellers it's nice that now only the seller's reputation matters. But for a lot of people there's still benefit in having a trusted middleman like Paypal.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by saas_co_de on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:31PM (#16055906)
> transfers are non-repudiable

Technically, but not legally.

Transfers are 100% reversible by going to court, so Bitcoin is really only non-reversible for criminal activity (dealing drugs, gambling, etc) where someone cannot bring an action because the contract was illegal in the first place.

This technical non-repudiability is a feature that only works for criminals and is an anti-feature for legitimate users.

Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by detaro on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @05:20PM (#16056365)
True, there is a lot of middle ground where that higher standard for reversibility is useful though (e.g. compared to dealing with PayPal or credit cards, which are the primary alternatives for international/inter-currency transfers and provide very little in the way of security for the seller). Especially interesting for smaller sums though, and there the current level of transfer fees really gets in the way.
Re:Founders Fund Makes Bet on Bitcoin by nicky0 on Tuesday January 02, 2018 @04:04PM (#16055614)
However, another core property of Bitcoin is strong resistance to censorship and government interference, which is another big part of its value.