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Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by btilly on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:05PM (#15953697)
My ability to choose whether to tip less for bad service is a way to encourage servers to give good service.

My experience traveling is that places like France with legally mandated tip amounts have very inconsistent service quality. It can be good, but it can also be very bad. And when a server decides to make your service bad, there is nothing that you can really do about it and nobody will care.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by astura on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:20PM (#15953857)
That's not the reality.

People tip based on the following:

The amount of the bill (everyone knows that a server who carries filet mignon works three times as hard as a server who carries an omelette and a cocktail is five times harder to pick up from the service bar than a soda - facts of life)

Guilt.

Their upbringing.

The server's gender and race (really)

How attractive the server is.

Their mood.

The weather.

The noise level of the restaurant.

If the they were touched by the server.

In practice, once you actually study this stuff, tips have very, very little to do with the quality of service received. Specifically, its around 2% of the tip amount.

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5888347/one-more-case-against-...

Service can be really inconsistent and also bad in the US too.

Above all restaurant service is a team effort and the service you receive is merely a function of the quality of management. Its insanely unemphatic to believe your server deserves a dock in pay for things out of their control.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by betterunix2 on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:10PM (#15953745)
My experience in Japan was that the service quality was even better than in America, and if I left a tip they assumed I did not know how to do arithmetic or that I forgot my change. Culture is probably the more important factor in the quality of service, not the ability of customers to leave or refuse a tip.
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by Chathamization on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:35PM (#15955248)
That's been my experience overseas as well. In fact, I feel that the service in the U.S. is generally worse than the service I get overseas. For instance, it's not uncommon for it to take half an hour between deciding to get the check and finishing the transaction (I've taken to asking for a check mid-meal now). You also get waiters who are unhappy if you don't order enough or don't order alcohol, as well as a territorial nature when it comes to tables that can lead to inefficiencies.

So in addition to worse service, you get stick with the unnecessary burden of having to calculate a tip at the end instead of simply getting a bill and paying for it. If you're paying cash it can be difficult to end up with the exact change you need to pay the tip you want, and if you're splitting the bill it can lead to frustrations when different people want to tip different amounts (or some people calculate the tip wrong).

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by btilly on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:23PM (#15953886)
That may be. But it is still incredibly frustrating to have to reward the waiter for a terrible experience and literally have nothing that you can do about it.

That said, if Trump's proposed revision of regulations around tipping go through, I'm going to probably greatly cut back on tipping. It is one thing to reward the waiter. It is quite another to believe that the money is going to the owner of the restaurant.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by codeka on Monday December 18, 2017 @02:38PM (#15954713)
Why is it only the server's service that you get to pay what you feel like?

This steak is nice, but it's not $17 nice. I think I'll just pay $14 for it.

These new tires for my car don't ride as well as the old ones. I think I'll only pay $50 for them, instead of the $75 asking price.

It was a nice concert, but I don't think it was really worth the $90 I paid. I'm going to pay $50.

There was a bit too much traffic on the bridge today. I'm going to only pay 75% of the usual toll.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by btilly on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:22PM (#15955114)
The difference is whether I have a contract.

If the contract has, "This is what I pay", I am willing to pay that. I agreed to it, it would be dishonest to do otherwise.

If there is no contract, I am free to choose whether or how much I pay. I err on the side of generosity. But if you spill my drink on my clothing, then fail to serve my child, then I see no reason why I should voluntarily reward your incompetence.

Incidentally even if there is a contract, you would be amazed at how much leeway there turns out to be if you have a problem.

For example if your restaurant gave me steak with Brussel sprouts served with it, I'll send it back because I'm allergic to cooked Brussel sprouts. I'm willing to pay for the meal even though I can't enjoy it, but you'd be amazed at how many restaurants will take it back, and offer me a different meal for free.

If the new tires that you just installed immediately spring a leak and I complain, you'd be amazed how many tire shops will replace them for free.

And so on. If you have a real problem with what you received, and you're polite about it, frequently establishments will try to make it right.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by astura on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:36PM (#15954011)
"My steak arrived cold? Try paying your rent this month now!"

Unless you are an uncaring psychopath you should pay servers in the US for bad service as well - everyone should be paid for the labor they do. If they aren't doing an adequate job they should be reprimanded or fired. That's not your job though, that's their boss's job. You don't know if they are just having an off day or the problem you had was caused by someone else.

Furthermore, most places pool tips so you're probably docking the pay of a really good server.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by btilly on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:03PM (#15954948)
Your comment reminds me of http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove and http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html. In your books, either I agree with you, or I am an evil person.

But if I take my clothing to a drycleaner, and my clothing comes back torn due to their incompetence, I'm not expected to pay for the drycleaning. Ditto if the valet damages my car.

The fact that someone put time in does not entitle them to my money. If I receive something of value, I give something of value. If this makes me a person that you do not wish to know, then I'm happy that I don't know you because you sound like an unpleasant person for me to be around.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by jstarfish on Monday December 18, 2017 @05:11PM (#15955988)
Not that I disagree with your sentiment, but you're only able to do this because this class of service providers can't effectively challenge your decision to withhold payment. If the damage is debatable (or pre-existing), the valet isn't going to sue you for his $10 tip.

Compare it to the business world, where if you ship a pallet of widgets and a few of them get damaged, you can't just tell UPS "you broke my shit, I'm not paying you." No, they delivered your shit, however subpar, so they expect payment for the trouble. If you keep withholding based on principle you'll find yourself blacklisted and have your account sent to collections.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by astura on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:33PM (#15955215)
The difference, of course, being businesses account for mistakes in their profit margins as a cost of doing business and purchase insurance for large losses. A server is an employee.

And to that: a server is very rarely personally responsible for a bad experience. Restaurant service is a team effort and the service you get merely reflects how well management functions.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by btilly on Monday December 18, 2017 @05:05PM (#15955944)
A small business usually does not have insurance for this, and the cost of making it right comes out of the owner's pocket.

Also while I can't speak to why other people don't tip, the reasons why I (very occasionally) don't are usually under the server's control. Even if the immediate cause of my unhappiness was not under their control, they had the option of acknowledging the problem and offering an apology. It takes a lot to lose my tip.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by greedo on Monday December 18, 2017 @07:57PM (#15956919)
If you get bad service, whether it's a rude waiter, cold/incorrect food or something else, the best and fairest course of action is to bring it to the manager's attention. They're usually pretty savvy about the real cause. But tipping a small amount just makes a waiter hate you.
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by guywaffle on Monday December 18, 2017 @04:48PM (#15955808)
It’s also the boss’s job to pay them. So why do I have to pay for the cold steak, and then pay the restaurant’s employee? That is not my job.
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by libertyEQ on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:21PM (#15953876)
Cultures differ even among "industrialized countries," so it makes little sense to compare them. Given your comments in this discussion, it is clear you have never worked in the service industry and you have little empathy for their issues.
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by betterunix2 on Monday December 18, 2017 @02:09PM (#15954396)
In fact, my first job was a typical summer job in the service industry: I scooped ice cream at an ice cream store. There was a tip jar and our tips were pooled and divided by the hours we worked -- it was not much but it was something.

I would not have complained if there were no tips and our salaries were increased a bit to compensate.

No, I do not have a lot of empathy for people who are unwilling to accept change or who think that a company that introduced some new technology should be held responsible for how that technology personally affected them. I have no interest in freezing society in time and only allowing new ideas that have no negative impact on anyone to be put into practice.

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by libertyEQ on Monday December 18, 2017 @02:57PM (#15954885)
> do not have a lot of empathy for people who are unwilling to accept change

As if you are going to change the tipping culture in the US?

I use cash because there are less fees to small business, and I like privacy. You are obviously free to participate in FB or whatever privacy-compromising activity you want

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by isleyaardvark on Monday December 18, 2017 @01:31PM (#15953955)
That's the theory but studies haven't found that tips improve service.

(pdfs):

http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

There are also issues where tipping can be biased due to racial or gender discrimination. Racial discrimination (I don't have a gender study handy): https://psmag.com/economics/racism-black-restaurant-waiters-...

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by acdha on Monday December 18, 2017 @04:41PM (#15955763)
Harassment is definitely a huge issue: there are tons of sleazy men who will harass wait staff secure in the knowledge that while their behavior is technically illegal most tipped employees are going to put up with it rather than miss on a big chunk of their income.
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by criddell on Monday December 18, 2017 @02:09PM (#15954402)
What about the reverse? Do those that deliver better service make more money than their under-performing peers?
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by EliRivers on Monday December 18, 2017 @02:21PM (#15954521)
Only if those providing better service are more attractive, more flirty (works only for the attractive, I suspect), touch their customers more, draw smiley faces on the bill, or participate in the various other things that do actually affect the tip.
Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by criddell on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:11PM (#15955009)
But that's true in general. Attractive people have lots of advantages.

I wonder if anybody has ever done a study with a group of waiters where on alternate days they alter the quality of service they provide but nothing else. Are their tips constant?

Re:Casualties of the Cashless Society: Those Who Get Seasona... by bsder on Monday December 18, 2017 @02:07PM (#15954371)
> My experience traveling is that places like France with legally mandated tip amounts have very inconsistent service quality. It can be good, but it can also be very bad.

My experience in France, is, in fact, quite different from yours. I found the same bell curve of service that I see in the US.

If anything, the waiters in France were LESS irritating than in the US in that they tended to not interrupt you unnecessarily.