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Re:A Classic of Soviet Engineering - The Typhoon-class sub by gaius on Monday August 09, 2010 @11:11AM (#1588202)
With soldiers holding engineers at gunpoint?

No but you have to look at the entire value chain. In the old Soviet Empire (call a spade a spade) conditions were often very poor for miners, farmers, etc. If those people had been paid a market rate for the raw materials and labour, and so on, at every stage in the value chain, then the cash bill at the end would have been much, much higher.

I don't doubt Russian engineers were very talented - we all saw that Russia produced great mathematicians, chess players, etc. But not so good as they could work miracles.

Re:A Classic of Soviet Engineering - The Typhoon-class sub by jacquesm on Monday August 09, 2010 @11:17AM (#1588217)
> conditions were often very poor for miners, farmers, etc. If those people had been paid a market rate for the raw materials and labour, and so on, at every stage in the value chain, then the cash bill would have been much, much higher.

You could be writing about very large parts of the world today there, not just the USSR as it was.

And some of those parts would be closer to home than you may be comfortable with.

Re:A Classic of Soviet Engineering - The Typhoon-class sub by rdtsc on Monday August 09, 2010 @11:50AM (#1588343)
> No but you have to look at the entire value chain.

Yes but there was more equality than it is now in the west among the richest and the poor. Healthcare, education (all, even higher!), and apartments were provided by the state. Think how much you make vs how much you spend for you house ($500K / 30 years?). What about about your healthcare over you lifetime $5M? Or college education $100K? If you didn't have those expenses, you might get by with just $15K/yearsin some parts of the US. Yes all those things were of the lowest quality but they were _there_. The oppression and gulags were there too, I am not excusing them at all.

Re:A Classic of Soviet Engineering - The Typhoon-class sub by tome on Monday August 09, 2010 @02:37PM (#1588902)
> The oppression and gulags were there too, I am not excusing them at all.

Then what are you saying? I'm finding it very hard to work out what your point is.

Re:A Classic of Soviet Engineering - The Typhoon-class sub by tome on Monday August 09, 2010 @03:03PM (#1588995)
OK, so I've reread your comments and what I think you're saying is:

"The coercion of the state (such as it was) did not play a significant role in the final quality of these engineering works."

Re:A Classic of Soviet Engineering - The Typhoon-class sub by rdtsc on Monday August 09, 2010 @04:06PM (#1589186)
Yes.

The point was that if food is cheap, and other stuff is provided, perhaps you don't have to pay your engineers $150K/year. If you can centralize all the education, housing and healthcare you can provide it cheaper for each person. Well of course , the system was broken and eventually fell appart.

But I was just highlighting that just because those particular engineers didn't make the equivalent dollar amount / year that US engineers made doesn't mean they had a proportionally lower standard of living, that is all.