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Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by hectorr1 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:40AM (#15870972)
The question that I keep coming back to is what are the implications of investing/speculating in a technology well before its implications are understood?

Adam Ludwin, the CEO of Chain, talks about how when the dot-com bubble happened, everyone knew at least to an extent that online retail would be a thing. Social networks would be a thing. Digital media would be a thing. The required ingredients were competition, Moore's Law, and time.

Bitcoin is different for a few reasons. It doesn't solve economic problems for most people in developed countries. It's also a development far deeper in the technology stack, a change in ledger management and accounting procedures. The last major update to this was double entry in the Italian Renaissance, which allowed the formation of corporations. The one before that was the invention of zero.

We don't know what the implications of Bitcoin will be. I think a much better analogy for the current bubble is the South Sea Company, since that was essentially people speculating on a new asset class (equity) that was poorly understood at the time. But saying that it's a bad investment because the use cases are not immediately obvious misses the forest for the trees.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by hnarn on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:07PM (#15872969)
The issue I have with Bitcoin is that people invest in it thinking that they are investing in cryptocurrencies, which is in your words what everybody knows will "be a thing". The problem is that they're investing in one very specific cryptocurrency, and there is no way of knowing if it's the one that will succeed. It's equally possible that we're seeing the pets.com or myspace of crypto-currencies -- failed projects in a genre that will change pretty much everything. It's the complete lack of understanding that worries me, and what makes me almost certain this is a bubble that will come down crashing hard.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by FooHentai on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:06PM (#15874812)
"Social media is certainly going to be of great importance, so I will invest heavily in Myspace"
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by hectorr1 on Friday December 08, 2017 @12:13PM (#15880180)
One nice thing for retail investors in open markets (as opposed to strategic investors like VCs in private markets) is that there is no pressure to pick only one winner.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Retric on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:50PM (#15873394)
Exactly, the odds that something else wins are very high, but picking the winner is going to be difficult and possibly not profitable. Really, look for something that can scale to a billion users while incentives are linked to being useful not being an investment as they have different optimizations.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by PeterisP on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:03PM (#15875534)
As the original article states, if you're sure that the concept is really going to be a big thing but you don't have a way to pick out the future winner, then investing proportionally in all of them can be highly profitable - as in the example of the dotcom bubble, if you invested in all of the IPOs, it'd eventually be very profitable; most of your investments are in losers, but the few winners make up for them.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Retric on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:44PM (#15876292)
IPO's are inherently an investment, a successful electronic currency on the other hand can get massive adoption without making early adopters rich.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by xorcist on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:53PM (#15875153)
Bitcoin bootstrapped from nothing. Every other coin since then bootstrapped from Bitcoin.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by linkregister on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:07PM (#15872966)
I think that Bitcoin is the Friendster or Napster of cryptocurrencies. It is paving the way, but the fundamentals of how it works are unsustainable. Transactions cost too much, take too long, and require too much proof of work. I also expect that a mild inflationary aspect is necessary to maintain liquidity and discourage hoarding.

I think the South Sea Company or tulip mania are good analogies.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by rlpb on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:39PM (#15875052)
> It is paving the way, but the fundamentals of how it works are unsustainable.

The fundamentals of how it works can be changed. It is true that entrenched actors may dig in their heels and prevent it from changing, and so some other more fast moving cryptocurrency may take over. An alternative is a hard fork. I think it's possible that a hard fork that has figured out the "right way" will do better than a fresh cryptocurrency doing the right thing but from scratch, because by hard forking you don't have to convince everyone to bootstrap. I accept it may equally go the other way; we'll have to wait and see.

> Transactions cost too much, take too long, and require too much proof of work.

Let's see what the lightning network brings.

As for requiring too much proof of work, I think that's a fallacy. You're looking at it backwards. "Much" proof of work isn't required; that miners compete by providing it is a consequence of the current value of the block reward and transaction fees. Relatively little hash power is actually required to maintain the network. The reason the current hash rate is so high is because hash rate follows price rather than the other way round. The high value of the mining rewards has attracted many miners. In the future, when the block reward becomes zero and the lightning network has relieved congestion on the main blockchain, traders (actually probably just parties seeking clearing) won't have to bid against each other so hard in fees to get their transactions confirmed. Then transaction fees will drop, so the reward for finding the next block will also drop, unprofitable miners will leave, and so will the hash rate.

So: 1) transactions cost too much and take too long is currently true but if the lightning network effort succeeds then this will no longer be a problem; and 2) too much proof of work is not actually "required".

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by PeterisP on Thursday December 07, 2017 @06:53PM (#15875480)
If we figure out better fundamentals, then it's not a given that eventually successful incarnation of those better fundamentals will be Bitcoin. If Ethereum or Bitcoin Cash or Litecoin or Monero or rlpb_coin or whatever else becomes the cryptocurrency of the future and becomes worth billions, then everyone who bought bitcoin at $10000 or $20000 per BTC will have wasted their money. If the concept of the lightning network is the next big thing, but for whatever reason Bitcoin Cash happens to fit work with it better, then again you lose your bet/investment.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by rlpb on Friday December 08, 2017 @07:31AM (#15878243)
> ...it's not a given that eventually successful incarnation of those better fundamentals will be Bitcoin.

I agree. I did say that :)

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by linkregister on Friday December 08, 2017 @02:10PM (#15881078)
Let me know if you decide to release rlpb_coin that solves those problems, I'll happily mine/buy in ;)
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by sushid on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:58PM (#15874741)
Interesting... So with that example, would you equate Ethereum with being the Facebook or iTunes of cryptocurrecy? Or do you think this entire generation of crypto needs to more or less die off first?
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by mattrices on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:16PM (#15873060)
Friendster and napster were central systems that were shut down for legal reasons and were replaced with other more distributed systems. Btc value is derived from its distributed "anti-fragile" nature which would require a lot more effort to shut down.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by iMuzz on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:25PM (#15873148)
When drawing an analogy to Friendster and Napster, I think the point linkregister is trying to make is that bitcoin is similar in the sense that it's a "first mover" and not a "last mover".

The underlying _why_ for these "first movers" fail are not related at all since it's a totally different vertical.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by mattrices on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:36PM (#15875714)
Sure, but first movers have an advantage due to wider name recognition and in this case a large established market cap and mining network. Unless the underlying tech shifts to somthing more stable or more profitable, last movers are at a disadvantage.

The deflation and high transaction fees seem to favor btc bc miners wouldn't shift to somthing less profitable and those using btc as a value store profit from deflation long term.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by linkregister on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:55PM (#15873453)
I absolutely agree with your distinction. I was using them as analogies for pioneer technologies.

I have faith in the overall Bitcoin architecture. Its greatest threat is a malicious actor taking over enough processing power to alter the blockchain.

I doubt that Bitcoin itself will be the dominant cryptocurrency due to the reasons I mentioned in my original post. These are two different issues and I appreciate your pointing that out.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by jklein11 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:27PM (#15874439)
The analogy between napster and bitcoin is interesting. Both are decentralized and "stateless." Ultimately p2p solutions like napster were replaced by Spotify/Apple Music. I think this is because the benefits of a stateless and decentralized solution weren't worth the additional complexity. Not sure if the same will be said of cryptocurrency.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Akujin on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:34PM (#15874515)
Napstar was replaced by torrents. People still download music without paying for it all day every day.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by PeterisP on Thursday December 07, 2017 @06:56PM (#15875495)
IIRC if we track the number of downloads or songs played, even spotify and youtube outcompete torrents by a huge margin, downloaded torrents are just not that popular for music nowadays compared to streaming. The legal services took over most of the mindshare and volume of music distribution, most of the people who used napster back then now get their music from a streaming service, not on a torrent.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by mattrices on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:45PM (#15875773)
Spotify was spun out of private torrent network libraries that still exist independant of spotify. Youtube still gets a lot of uploads from private torrenters trying to generate ad revenue. Just because they are percieved as legal and convienient they get more views, but ultimately where did the content come from?

https://torrentfreak.com/spotifys-beta-used-pirate-mp3-files...

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Akujin on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:05PM (#15875543)
MP3s are so small compared to the rest of the internet now that there's a glut of shady websites that cater to people trying to get MP3s. Rings tones are a great example why someone with a Spotify account might google an mp3 for a song. Meanwhile you've got tons of semilegal mixes on Soundcloud and Mixcloud. Spotify and Apple Music is just convenience.

These sites also cater to the leaks scene. Every single hot album to drop recently was leaked 24-72 hours before dropping on "official" sources like Spotify. This makes even those people that have Spotify accounts look for MP3s.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by testestx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:27PM (#15874435)
A better analogy is with KaZaA. It's still around, but was largely replaced by BitTorrent.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by spookthesunset on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:48AM (#15871045)
All this was thought about the last time bitcoin spiked. Bitcoin is 9 years old. The iPhone wasn’t even around when it was born. If bitcoin was gonna revolutionize money, bookkeeping, governments, and life in general, it would have happened already. The truth is, all bitcoin is at this point is an advanced form of gambling....
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by hectorr1 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:00PM (#15871710)
The pace of technological development in the past 20 years has been driven by scaling processing, storage, bandwidth, and networks. The intellectual, legal, cultural, and social infrastructure to make that happen already existed for the most part. When tech has an impact deeper in the societal stack, it takes a lot longer for its impact to be felt.

NB: Eternal September was in 1993, when Usenet went mainstream. Facebook, Twitter, etc weren't invented for another decade. Since then, they've both toppled dictators and elected a reality TV star to the Presidency. Change happens gradually, then suddenly.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by brm on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:53AM (#15871099)
Point of order... iPhone June 2007, Bitcoin January 2009
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by dpiers on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:55AM (#15871120)
Bitcoin came out in January 2009, and the first iPhone came out in June 2007.

Other than that minor detail, I generally agree with your comment.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by nicky0 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:07PM (#15874246)
iPhone was a year old when Bitcoin was born.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by throwawayjava on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:47AM (#15871028)
> a change in ledger management and accounting procedures. The last major update to this was double entry in the Italian Renaissance

That seems wrong. I'm not an accountant, but I have a damn hard time believing that accounting practices haven't changed significantly since the Italian Renaissance...

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by colorint on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:27PM (#15871938)
It's more of a technical note, but probably the last really important change was the accrual basis, which, as far as I know, was popularized in the 20th century. This is the system of accounting where you record revenues and expenses when you become aware of them, rather than when you pay them, so many things end up being recorded as debts. Notably, this is the currently-accepted way of doing accounting.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by cbr on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:31PM (#15874487)

    this is the currently-accepted way of doing accounting
Cash basis is also accepted, and generally used by very small businesses where accrual accounting is too complicated.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by colorint on Friday December 08, 2017 @06:24PM (#15882993)
Cash basis is accepted for the purposes of taxes, but my understanding is that it's not acceptable for legally-mandated reporting. That is, cash basis is not among the generally accepted accounting principles.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by hectorr1 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:41AM (#15871535)
Accounting practices, professionalism, standardization, etc have obviously evolved tremendously since then, the same way any technology does as adoption increases. Math wasn't fixed between the invention of numbers and the concept of zero, but it became far more powerful when you incorporated it.

Another way to think about it is with cars. Cars today bear no resemblance to what they looked like or were capable of when they were invented, but nothing around the core idea of putting an engine on wheels has changed. The airplane was different. (But so was the Segway)

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by s0rin on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:35PM (#15875025)
As a CPA, double-entry accounting is sort of considered the founding of modern accounting. Everything else is a question of accurate recognition. Luca Pacioli was an Italian dude who was the first person to publish something widespread on double-entry accounting, although the same methods existed in other regions without any formal documentation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luca_Pacioli

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Animats on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:23PM (#15874933)
The big effect of the dot-com boom was that it forced every business to have an on-line presence. This was by no means a given at the time. We could have had a world where maybe 20% of businesses, mostly those that were doing mail order, had a web site.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by cjensen on Thursday December 07, 2017 @05:34PM (#15875016)
Your question is spot on when you ask if the implications are well understood. History is littered with new financial technologies whose implications were not well-understood which immediately resulted in a bubble. The invention of stocks (South Seas Bubble), of stock margin (1929 crash), federal deposit insurance (S&L crash), collateralized debt obligations (2008 crash).

Historically, being early on a new financial technology has rarely gone well for the participants.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by CryptoPunk on Friday December 08, 2017 @05:25AM (#15877810)
CDOs were not new in 2008. The 2008 crash was a result of growing federal intervention in the housing market (federal mortgage guarantees are a huge cash cow for financial institutions and politicians who get appointed as executives of GSEs like Fannie Mae after leaving office) and the FDIC's subsidization of housing construction loans.

There were large markets in car loan and commercial real estate mortgage CDOs that didn't see a crash anywhere near as large as that seen in residential real estate CDOs and construction loans, and that's because they were not subject to GSE loan guarantees and FDIC deposit guarantees, respectively.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by cjensen on Friday December 08, 2017 @11:23AM (#15879785)
You are both right and wrong.

New financial tech takes awhile to become popular enough to become dangerous. So while CDOs were invented in the late 80s, it wasn't until 2000 or so that they started to become a craze that lead to dangerous conditions.

The government through GSEs and FDIC did, as you say, constantly blow air into the housing bubble. CDOs were also a big compounding factor in that they were willing to back an enormous amount of low-interest high-risk loans. Exactly the loans which blew up.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by aryehof on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:47PM (#15876761)
> "a change in ledger management and accounting procedures"

I'm not sure that this now oft repeated meme isn't entirely misleading in regards to accounting. Accounting system audit trails have always been immutable in concept and design, and Bitcoin and block chain brings no change to double-entry accounting and current accounting principles.

In terms of general accounting systems, all block chain represents is a strong encryption based means of ensuring immutability of the audit trail - a feature simply not required.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by QAPereo on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:50AM (#15871058)
The big concern I think, is the insane use of electricity, which is manageable for now, but could really go overboard in a hurry.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Balgair on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:05PM (#15871743)
It should decrease (long term) as the amount of 'mining' naturally goes down with the lessened 'reward', per the schedule. The fee based crypto-breaking should be less. As dedicated crypto-breaking hardware is manufactured with an eye towards energy efficiency things should also get better. In the short term, yes, this is totally crazy. But in a few years, things should be much better.

That said, how fucking sci-fi is this?! Remember in the old games and novels how 'energy credits' would be a currency unit in the future. Well, looks like we are in the future then. Bitcoin is pretty much a 'baby' energy credit, it's also more than that, but it is an energy credit in a nascent way. I mean, that's pretty cool to teenager me.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by Taniwha on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:53PM (#15874707)
yes, but it's a spent energy credit, it's not like you can reverse it and spend the work, on something else - it has no value other than as a possible future negative asset, something you might be required to purchase carbon credits to cover
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by paulgb on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:57AM (#15871137)
Yes. The cognitive dissonance around this in the cryptocurrency community is worrying.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by QAPereo on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:05AM (#15871207)
Not surprising though, given that said dissonance allows for profits to be pursued.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by michaelchisari on Thursday December 07, 2017 @02:54PM (#15873437)
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by tome on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:17AM (#15871317)
I would be interested to know what is the cost of that electricity per bitcoin transacted. Credit card processing fees are a small number of percent, AIUI. Is it comparable?
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by carlmr on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:44AM (#15871563)
Currently it stands at 250kWh per transaction. My two person household in a developed country with lots of appliances uses 6 Bitcoin transactions per year in electricity. Bitcoin eletricity uses is insanity and it's only set up to rise.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by tome on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:59AM (#15871701)
Interesting. According to https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh the price per kWh in the UK is of the order of 10p. So a transaction costs 25 pounds? That surely can't be right.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by QAPereo on Thursday December 07, 2017 @01:04PM (#15872384)
Depends on how/when you're getting/spending your electricity. If you're just running your mining operation out of your home, during daylight hours then you'd probably be about right. Presumably mining successfully has a lot to do with getting your electricity at a steep discount. The way we generate electricity, that's entirely possible at certain times.

We're not going to stay in that relatively narrow band for long though, with the growth of this thing. There's only so much "spare" on the grid, off-peak, and this whole thing relies on wasteful means of energy production, storage and transmission.

So on one hand (hopefully) the opportunity to scavenge for cheap CPU cycles is going to contract, while the market for bitcoin expands? Yikes.

Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by eggpy on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:17PM (#15874330)
That is correct on order of magnitude, at least (25 pounds ~ $33 today). That's one of the reasons Steam is no longer accepting bitcoins[0]:

  > transaction fees that are charged to the customer by the Bitcoin network have skyrocketed this year, 
    topping out at close to $20 a transaction last week (compared to roughly $0.20 when we initially enabled Bitcoin).
[0] http://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/...
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by rsynnott on Thursday December 07, 2017 @03:21PM (#15873701)
Big miners are likely using somewhat cheaper electricity than that, but yeah, the cost of a transaction could well be in that range. The cost of a transaction to a bitcoin _user_ is now significant.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by IWeldMelons on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:20PM (#15874364)
In parts of the former USSR, energy costs 1/8 or less of the price in the developed world.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by nicky0 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:19PM (#15874351)
About right. The block reward more than pays for it.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by danieltillett on Friday December 08, 2017 @07:07AM (#15878166)
The sooner this bubble bursts the better. Bitcoin has become an environmental obscenity.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by wz1000 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @03:09PM (#15873587)
It is profitable for the entire network to burn upto 12.5*price of bitcoin dollars worth of coal every ~10 minutes. At $15,000 a BTC, that means miners can consume $27,000,000 worth of electricity a day and still remain profitable. This amount varies linearly with the price of BTC.
Re:A tale of two bubbles, the dot-coms and Bitcoin by PeterisP on Thursday December 07, 2017 @07:05PM (#15875546)
As a corollary to this, the cost per transaction also varies linearly with the price of BTC - the more useful BTC becomes for investors/speculators/as a store of value, the less useful it becomes as a tool for transactions.

On the other hand, the high valuation can only be justified by the expectation of it being a really good tool for transactions (or, alternatively, the greater fool theory) and becoming bad at transactions means it'll eventually become also a bad store of value; so a technical solution to transaction cost is highly needed.