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Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by danharaj on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:31AM (#15870213)
Is every attempt to establish communism going to end up like the Soviet Union?
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by danschumann on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:36AM (#15870264)
There are quite a few attempts at communism that have failed very severely when it comes to human rights. The risk of becoming like the Soviet Union is a great one. To know the extents of how people thought about their government, there is an example from the Gulag Archipelago...

A woman was accused of saying things against the state and was sentenced to death. She lied to her daughter and told her daughter of her guilt, so that her daughter would not think bad thoughts against the state, the same state that was going to falsely execute her.

They used to bury people in mass graves, alive. Burying them alive was not out of cruelty, but convenience. They found that live bodies were easier to take from the carts into the graves than if they had to lift dead bodies.

The worst thing about capitalism is so much better than the worst thing about communism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by yequalsx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:47AM (#15870361)
Given the use of slave child labor on cocoa plants, blood diamonds and the chopping off of hands, abuses in the pursuit of rubber in Africa, the willful dumping of toxic chemicals that cause birth defects, etc. that occur in the pursuit of profit by capitalists I’m not sure one can conclude that the worst thing about capitalism is much better than for communism.

Perhaps you could say that capitalism does a better job of dispersing the benefits but it’s worst aspects are quite bad. Overall, the thing to fear is concentrated power in too few hands and unregulated markets.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by danschumann on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:56AM (#15870462)
If someone is a hand chopper-offer, people will not want to do business with them. Capitalism will punish him. And he does that not as a result of capitalism, there is no competitive edge to hand chopping off, it's just evil.

Also, lets pretend the hand chopper-offer is not an individual running a business, lets say he's in charge of an all-powerful communist government. When you centralize power too much, you risk a tyrant seizing control of that power.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by yequalsx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:07AM (#15870570)
I believe your first paragraph is naive. There are lots of examples of bad actors in capitalism that are never punished by the market or the government. Your belief in the wonders of the market correcting abuses is especially hard to understand when not everyone has perfect market information. As an example look at De Beers and how many people bought diamonds from this company that willingly did business with the hand choppers.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by danschumann on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:21AM (#15870758)
I believe you aren't objectively comparing the ills of capitalism with the ills of communism, or you simply can't do math.

Communism means the government seizes control of the means of productions. There are few businesses that I would rather see ran by the government than by a citizen with skin in the game.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by yequalsx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:31AM (#15870879)
I haven’t added the sum total of all misery (how can this be meaningfully quantified?) caused by capitalists and compared with the sum total of all misery caused by autocracies. Both are horrible and good people ought to strive for a world in which neither occur. Capitalism is better overall in that it does a much better job of dispersing benefits. But the misery caused by capitalists in the pursuit of profit ought not be overlooked. I believe the Bible is correct when it says that the root of all evil is the love of money (which includes power).
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by JoeAltmaier on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:50AM (#15870394)
Hm, the starvation of millions during Mao's control were pretty bad. Not sure mistreatment even comes close to 30 millions dead?
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by yequalsx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:00AM (#15870495)
The worst of capitalism is sort of like death by a thousand cuts. It occurs in pockets and has a much more diverse set of bad actors. But a few slaves here and a few deformed babies there and pretty soon we are talking about misery On a grand scale. It’s just spread out over the planet in pockets and doesn’t have a single person to blame. The worst of Mao and Stalin was more concentrated and was more efficient. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that the worst of capitalism is anything less than evil and abhorrent.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by JoeAltmaier on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:02AM (#15870510)
Its all tragedy, agreed, every life is important. But nothing is more tragic than well-meaning people trying to run everything themselves, because they know better than the rest of us. E.g. Communism etc.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by yequalsx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:08AM (#15870590)
Yes. And E.g. Ayn Rand style capitalism and capitalism without proper regulation.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by systematical on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:33AM (#15870228)
No, it could end up like China, Cuba, Vietnam, or Cambodia.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by bryanlarsen on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:34AM (#15870236)
Or it could end up like Sweden or Denmark. (Referring to socialism as the article does, not communism as the comment does. It's Denmark that Bernie & his supporters want to emulate, not communism)
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by astine on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:50AM (#15870388)
Sweden and Denmark are often described as socialist countries because they have major political parties with historical ties to classical socialism but the reality is that classical socialism and social democracy (what Sweden and Denmark currently practice) are really different. Socialism involves the state control over the entire economy whereas social democracy is basically a market system with an especially large welfare state. If your goal in the United States is just to increase the size of the welfare state then there is a good change that it won't end up in dictatorship, but if your trying to completely suppress the market system, you'll have a more difficult time of it, I think.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by arka2147483647 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:37AM (#15870274)
Well, Nordic countries are usually called Social Democracies, though Americans usually don't make the distinction.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by danschumann on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:38AM (#15870284)
Those are very homogeneous cultures. America is perhaps one of the least homogeneous cultures. Everyone does not value the same things, so having a state enforce that everyone values the same things would only be the result of too much force.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by systematical on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:37AM (#15870271)
Fair. I still view those countries as capitalist though, its still how most of their markets operate. They are just huge welfare states with a vast social safety net. Not disagreeing with what they do, just my 2 cents on what they actually are.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by psyc on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:55AM (#15870446)
Social Democracies are not remotely socialist. They're capitalist, with welfare.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by erikj on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:41AM (#15870306)
I'm not sure if a country as large as the US can faithfully emulate Denmark.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by ameister14 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:53AM (#15870423)
As a lot of people will point out, neither of those countries are socialist.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by bryanlarsen on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:17AM (#15870709)
It doesn't matter what you call it. What matters is the policies of the people who the young people in the article are hoping to elect. That's Bernie, and the Danish welfare state.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by mattimo on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:35AM (#15870261)
There isn't one communist country in our history that I would ever want to live in. Even a modern communist country like China would be a terrible place to live.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:41AM (#15870305)
Modern China isn't communist.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by mattimo on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:02PM (#15871721)
Yes, I would say they are a brutal authoritarian socialist country
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by briandear on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:35AM (#15870250)
Yes. Or worse. Human nature exists and it doesn’t change. Ignoring the Invisible Hand is to ignore what it means to be human.

Read the book Animal Farm if you haven’t already. That captures the psychology of communism perfectly and demonstrates why it never, ever works.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by SauciestGNU on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:39AM (#15870291)
If that's what you took away from the book then I'm afraid you did a shallow reading of it. Animal Farm was specifically a critique of Stalin and the USSR, and how Stalin hijacked the revolutionary vanguard and turned it into a fiefdom for the loyal party members.

Orwell himself was a left anarchist and staunch antifascist and anticapitalist. His critique is that of authoritarianism. If you take away from Orwell that he supports capitalism in any form then you may have missed his point.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by ivanbakel on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:42AM (#15870315)
Animal Farm is not an anti-communist book. The first half captures communism working perfectly well under the rule of the Lenin-Trotsky analogue - the animals work hard, are well-fed, and organise themselves to create new industry - the windmill - with the goal of eventually eliminating the need for labour.

Everything goes to pot when the Stalin-analogue takes over, because the book is a reflection of Orwell's opinions of the Soviet Union and his experience fighting with the communes in Spain and the subsequent purges committed Stalinist factions against the Trotskyists. If you read the Ukranian prologue, which is included with most modern published editions, Orwell even outlines that Animal Farm is an attack on Stalinism, and he firmly believes in socialism.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by yequalsx on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:41AM (#15870307)
The takeaway of Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, etc. is not that communism is bad but rather that concentrating too much power in too few hands is bad. For instance Hitler, Shah of a Iran, etc. Especially when the leaders have simplistic notions. For example, Idi Amin, Maduro, Baby Doc Duvalle, etc.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by ameister14 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @09:54AM (#15870435)
Sure - communism simply requires the centralization and concentration of power and so is incredibly vulnerable to authoritarian takeover.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by AstralStorm on Thursday December 07, 2017 @11:30AM (#15871436)
Since when a prerequisite for communism is nationalisation? As far as I'm aware the actual communism was supposed to be ran by worker committees and not "party" or "leader". And does not have to involve central planning at all. Do not confuse it with authoritarianism. Or stalinism which was a variant of it.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by ameister14 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:35PM (#15872026)
I'm not confusing it, I'm going from what Marx and Engels said.

"Only conscious organisation of social production, in which production and distribution are carried on in a planned way, can lift mankind above the rest of the animal world as regards the social aspect, in the same way that production in general has done this for men in their aspect as species. Historical evolution makes such an organisation daily more indispensable, but also with every day more possible."

"If it should become necessary for communist society to regulate the production of men, just as it will have already regulated the production of things, then it, and it alone, will be able to do this without difficulties. It seems to me that it should not be too difficult for such a society to achieve in a planned way what has already come about naturally, without planning, in France and Lower Austria. In any case it will be for those people to decide if, when and what they want to do about it, and what means to employ"

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by danharaj on Thursday December 07, 2017 @12:44PM (#15872135)
Organization and planning are not the same as centralization and concentration of power. It would be absurd to conflate the two. So do these quotes justify your claim or not?
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by ameister14 on Thursday December 07, 2017 @04:26PM (#15874429)
In order to effectively execute such planning and transition from capitalist to communist, it required concentration of power in the federal government - further management was required to maintain equitable distribution of population, labor and resources.

That's why, in the transition period, power would end up concentrated in the hands of a small group of people.

Obviously eventually the idea was that the State would cease to be anything more than a mechanism for distribution of resources and stop managing people, but there are an awful lot of problems with that, conceptually.

Also, the guy I responded to said it didn't have to involve central planning. It kinda does, at least Marx and Engel's version does.

Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by AstralStorm on Thursday December 07, 2017 @03:23PM (#15873728)
purposed organizations were worker committees or what is essentially the more democratic version of worker union. With some relatively minor central oversight. Sometimes committee of experts (not government ones). Definitely the policies were not supposed to be subsumed by national ideology or ideas of people in charge.
Re:Socialism, Capitalism Seen in New Light by Younger Americans by peatmoss on Thursday December 07, 2017 @10:11AM (#15870632)
I’m upvoting this comment because it would be a shame for the excellent responses to lose their context.